solved? 1.9td S2 xantia Throttle idle speed climbing

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Hello i haven't posted here for a while as my 1998 S2 xantia 1.9TD has been very reliable, but and there is always a but,

During the recent extreemly warm weather I noticed that the Throttle wasn't closing down properly and the engine would tick over once hot at 12000 rpm which was leading to the engine being overworked at idle and over heating.

I tried openning the bonnet and pushing back the fuel pump lever and this closed down the throttle to normal idle speed.
then it only occured intermittantly occassiona;ly the throttle would rise and occassionally it would fall back again.

So I tried spraying wd40 into the compensator which on my S2 xantia is a small plastic drum two thirds the way along the throttle cable and it is clipped to the side of the airfilter box the throttle cable runs through this compensator (citroens name for it) and then passes through to the throttle lever on the pump.
the oil seemed to free up the cable passing through the compensator for a day at least until the oil disapated and the compensator in my view started to seize up again not alowing the throttle cable to release enough to close the throttle down properly, again this behaviour is internittant at the best of times. I also tried injecting a thicker 15w/40 oil into the compensator drum and this has improoved the situation but again the throttle still refuses to close down properly at times.

I have purchased a replacement cable kit from GSF but according to them it is the very same kit that fits the MK1 xantia, now I know from my Fathers VSX that his MK1 cable is not the same as the S2 Models, the MK1 has a damper fitted to the Diesel pump in the shape of a very thin shock absorber which slows the fall rate of the throttle as it closes the Mk1 also has no conpensator fitted to the cable, however the S2 has the Knuckle shaped attachments that are used on the pump to take a Mk1 damper but no such damper is present on my S2, instead I seem to have the compensator fitted to the throttle cable.

The GSF kit I purchased is for a number of different vechicles and does not contain a compensator, so I have been to Citroen and spoken to several mechanics familiar with the compensator and mentioned that when I lubricated the compensator it behaved normally allowing the throttle to close properly, the compensator is a seoerate componant and is available so i ordered one.
My dilema is that no-one seems to know how to fit a new compensator to the throttle cable anymore. not even the citroen mechanics, I know the compensator I have in my car was re-used somehow in past throttle cable changes but the mobile independant that did the job has long gone.
I asked Martin @ Pleiades if he could help but he to has never fitted one to an S2 xantia so I am hoping that someone can please explain how to fit this compensator to the new throttle cable?
I am really stuck for any inforrmation to get this fixed and would really appreciate some help from anyone who may be in the know.


Thanks very much in advance.
Nigel.

[citronut]

Nigel

you dont need the inertia device in there at all,

even the cable kit citroen sell does not come with one at all,

im very surprised you say it is available from citroen on its own i suppose???

[Xaccers]

Both S1 and S2 TD cables are identical, both are fitted with the dampener on the front of the pump and the compensator.
Over the years people remove the dampener (or don't), and replace the throttle cable (hence the missing compensator).

Chances are the cable is fraying inside the compensator as the sheath has to be cut to fit the compensator.
Easiest fix?
Have a look at the size of the metal blob on the pedal end in the plastic clip, then head to your local cycle shop and buy a gear cable with same size metal blob on the end.
Carefully remove the plastic clip from the throttle cable, extract the old cable and bin it, then fit the new cable to the plastic clip and feed it through the sheath via the hole in the foot well all the way to the throttle arm.
Get someone (or something heavy) to floor the pedal as you open the throttle arm fully and secure the cable end in it so pedal fully down corresponds with throttle fully open.
Should only cost you a couple of quid.
Don't cut the excess cable length off though, just wrap it around the arm otherwise it can unwind.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

well if your absolutely sure Malcolm we can give it a try it is apparently a tension compensator so Citroen like to call it
item no 13 on their parts list entitled throttle componants.
showing the pedal and throttle cable assembly.


Xac,
Unfortunately we dont have that luxury here of good old fashined biycycle shops.
so the replacement cable cheap as it is isnt worth fitting then without the old compensator? (which is present at the moment) it was only 20 quid for a new cable kit. could I thread this through the cable sleeve and the old compensator to just replace the cable core with the new pedal clip attached? or as Malcolm suggests dump the compensator completely and just install the new cable on its own without the old compensator and no pump damper, I do have access to a pump damper if it is needed without a cable compensator.
regards Nigel.

[Xaccers]

Pump damper isn't needed.
Yes you could just feed the new cable from the kit through the old sheath. It's a lot easier than trying to fit new outer sheath and inner metal wound sheath to the bulk head (although if memory serves, the throttle grommet can be popped out to make it a little bit easier, you then just have the fun job of fitting it back in.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Xac,

Right lets apply some clarity to all of this then please?

it becomes very confusing when different people refer to the same thing as something else.

Malcolm says the inertia device isnt needed, in inertia devioce am I to assume he means the plastic (black) cylinder inline with the throttle cable what Citroen calls the compensator? this is attached to a large clip on the side of the air filter box.

and Xac I think you are telling me that the Damper on the pump is not needed thats fine as I dont have one fitted at present anyway and it is just confusing the issue further.

so I assume that I dont need to fit any of these devices at all with a new throttle cable the spring loaded fuel pump arm is sufficient to close the throlttle alone with a new cable?

regards Nigel.,

[Xaccers]

The inertia device isn't needed, however if it has been fitted then there is a cut in the sheath of the cable, so if you remove it without replacing the sheath with the new one from the kit then you'll have a gap.
So, if you are going to ditch it, I would do the following:
1. disconnect the cable from the arm on the pump, remove the sheath and inertia device.
2. disconnect the plastic clip from the pedal and pull the cable out through the foot well.
3. feed the new cable through the hole in the foot well.
4. pull the remaining sheath out from the bulk head.
5. slide on the new uncut sheath using the new cable to guide it and fit it to the rubber grommet in the bulk head (it's a push fit but access is poor hence it may be better to pop the grommet out from the foot well).
6. set the throttle cable length as I described earlier with the pedal to the metal

Nigel, this is all from memory, so apologies if the accuracy of some bits (the grommet) verge towards that of the BoL
It's been 7 years since I first changed the cable using the kit. I kept the inertia device in place the first time, and the cable lasted only a few months before fraying there again. I then replaced it with an un-cut sheath and the bicycle gear cable which is thinner than the original cable and so less likely to rub.
If the kit doesn't come with lube, I'd spray some 3in1 type oil (not WD40) down the new sheath before inserting the new cable.

[citronut]

i personally would bin the complete old cable because with age, and the constant sliding of the inner cable through the outer,
it wears/cuts into the inside of the outer especially were the cable is curved round corners

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Thank you very much for that Xac & Malcolm, your last post Xac is something I can at least hand to Martin @ Pleiades and something he could easily understand.
Malcolm I have repeated this pretty much in the Citroen Car Club Forum Thanks for your help over there to but sometimes it just gets a little confusing and a second opinion is always helpful hope you understand?
Thanks again it is all very much appreciated as usual. Right where is that print button


regards Nigel.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Right it's back to the drawing board I am afraid the new throttle cable fitted on friday the 12th of July made little or no difference to the throttle climbing away during idle, I have replaced the fuel filter & changed the oil, all I can think of now is maybe perhaps the timming has slipped somehow or perhaps the injectors are badkly worn but I am not really qualified to make such judgments .

My Father also experienced this yeasterday in His Mk1 xantia when his throttle in outside temperatures of around 25 degrees C climbed during idle in traffic to 1800 rpm . both cars are at 160 K and 166 K mine is the 166K one and I have never replaced the injectors since I have owned her, I am not sure at what intervals these should be changed.

can the hot weather affect our engines like this? or maybe there is something in the fuel we have buying from Shell? this is their standard diesel. and we both use the same forcourt.

I decided to keep the old compensatior inline with the new throttle cable it is actually a spring in a canister designed to keep the throttle cable tight over long distances and that is all it does it adds tension to the cable and outer sleeve to stop slackness occurring. a smaller version of this tensioner was supplied with the throttle cable kit from GSF but we decided to stick with the old one. and the original outer sleeve as it is a plastic sleeve and not a wire coil type sleeve there was no resistance at all with the new cable in place in fact the new cable was smaller in diameter than the old which was also incredibly dry and devoid of lubrication.
EDIT
i have since done a fair bit of searching online and found a fair few people complainning about similar faults on Xantias some of the info is on here and back dates to 2007 I then went out to the car and removed the rubber air intake hose that sits over the vacumm pump on the flywheel end of the cam shaft and I spotted a split in one of the vacumm pipes connected to the actuator switches attached to the bulkhead I have trimmed the pipe back and reasembled it I want to test it when cold to see if the cold start idle control turns its self off after the engine has warmed up the idle speed seems a little better at about 950 rpm which is a heck of a lot better than it was at 1200 rpm it doesnt seem to be climbing like it was, I expect that it will take some time for the ecu to adjust itself to the correct settings to adjust the idle speed properly.
off to check My Fathers Vacumm pipes tommorrow to see if he also has a split pipe on His Mk1 VSX.
I am quite suprized when I mentioned the throttle climbing earlier that no-one picked up on the possibility of the idle control vacumm pipes being split.

regards Nigel.

[RichardW]

Nigel

The vacuum controlled idle speed should only be able to adjust the idle speed up to 1100 rpm - this is the cold start idle position, or the AC-on idle position. If it revs up to 1800 rpm, then either the cable is hanging up, or the pump is knackered. Next time it does it, jump out and see if you can push the accelerator lever back to slow it, if not, then I suspect it's time to replace the pump.

[citronut]

Nidel
how can you prove you have fixed a problem when you have retained half the crap from the old cabl,

i still stand by my reply to you regarding bin the complete old cable including the inertia device,

it could be possible your new cable is over tight

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Malcolm,
I wasnt critising your input at all I intially thought it was the throttle cable breaking down and jamming somewhere along the line
and Xac mentionning that his cable frayed inside his compensator twice made me think well maybe it was worth investigating this.

my enquiries where about the tension device namely the compensator, the throttle cable was absolutey fine if a ittle dry inside its sleeve, as suggested by Xac put a thinner cable core in instead this is what we did.

you could push and pull the cable core at both ends without it catching at all one person at the pedal end and another at the engine bay. After changing the cable core it would seem that my enquireys were leading me along the wrong route, i found this
about ever increasing throttle speed.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/ ... tm?t=60164" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which has pretty much explained the exact same symptoms ,

The throttle cable inner core was fitted by Pleiades on Friday. Martin & I discussed the job outside the workshop as it was being done my interest lie in the conmpensator which we now know is meerely a tension device holding the outer case of the cable taught as you press the pedal pulling the inner core. it stops the outer casing twisting or flexing as the inner core moves within the cable casing. so to say it serves no purpose would be entirely incorrect it stops the casing from twisting. Pleiades decided to keep it.

I then folloowed the Honest John vacumm pipe problem on my own Xantia and found that one of the pipes comming from the cable activated diaphram had a big split in it, apparently this controls the idle speed when the engine warms up, it closes dowen the throttle slightly and informs the Ecu that the engine has warmed up and fast idle reserved for ciold starting is no lomger needed.

sorry to take you on another track but it seems I was barking up the wrong tree from the start, in assuming it was the throttle cable.(it seems to be a process of elimination)

I backed off the throttle cable adjustment by two notches for MOTs a few years ago and I have neglected to put the tension back again, so the cable was slightly slack when the problem first occurred. the new cable seems to be absolutely spot on.

for adjustment at the moment but I could back it off a couple of notches to see if it makes any difference.

however it is not compressing the spring in the springed compensator Throttle closed

repairing the Vacumm pipe from the cable operated diaphram (pulled by the pumps fast idle control lever) that leads to the Vacumm control switch on the bulkhead has dropped the throttle speed to about 950rpm when the engine is warmed up.

This is a massive improovement on the 1200 rpm it was sitting at initally. I am still grateful for your help and advice regardless or whether or not it improoved the Idle speed I have still learnt the true purpose of the Compensator in discussion with you & Xac.
it would seem to be a matter of indinvidual choice of wether it is kept or not when repalcing the throttle cable. as I was not the one fitting the new cable the choice was made by Pleiades.
The throttle cable kit supplied by GSF also has a compensator in it only much smaller in diameter, this one fits into the back of the throttle cable adjuster just before the pump throttle lever again used to prevent the casing from twisting when you press on the pedal
.regards Nigel.

[Xaccers]

Sorry Nigel I've been so tied up with work I should have twigged that the cold idle is around 1200 and mentioned it.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

No worries Xac, I got there in the end I always go round the trees and house's first the trouble is it all used to be a process of eliminmation these days they seem to plug in a computer which gives you a fault code, I dont know which is better.
Thank you for your parcipitation anyway Xac it has been most interesting,
now on with my other little problem an LHM drip on the steering rack ho hum here we go again...

regards Nigel.