Correct spheres?

[isisalar]

Just collected the last two spheres from GSF and before they are fitted could someone please confirm they're the correct pressures/capacity.
The rear accumulator is 400cc 40 bar and the anti sink is 300cc 50 bar.
There was only one seal supplied, the normal one, with the anti sink and this is not a job I've had to do previously, is a seal needed at all or is the old one re used for the center connection.
I've had the hydraflush in there for close on 1500 miles now and the ride has been deteriorating since, it's now riding low at the back,possibly has gone out of adjustment, and the back brakes aren't working as they should, bubbles have reared their ugly head having been instrumental in producing a hard ride, temporarily cured when it was ticking over on high for an hour while the brakes were bled.
I'm going out now to suck out the hydraflush and get some LHM back in there, be interesting to see how much difference it makes.
Cars going in Wednesday to have the last two spheres fitted and a pair of front droplinks. Apart from the noise do dodgy droplinks have any adverse effect on the suspension or steering?
If on Wednesday after the spheres are on I see no bubbles in the LHM and the suspension is working correctly I will be a very happy man and all thanks to the help I've had from you guys.
Thanks
Paul

[Hell Razor5543]

Failing drop links can make a noise, and affect the ride (as they link to the anti-roll bar).

As always while working on the suspension of a green blooded Citroen, make certain it is properly supported.

I am not certain about Hydractive spheres, but while 5 of the 6 spheres on a basic system use the standard large 'O' rings, the anti sink sphere has a pipe screwed onto it, and IIRC this needs a 4.5mm tube seal. If the old seal is OK you could re-use it, but I would have a spare, just in case. Be careful with this sphere; that pipe can catch people out. Use a 9mm flare spanner (I hope I got that size right!) to loosen it, and then start the sphere moving. Once it is, pop the spanner back onto the pipe union, and then, with care, rotate the sphere off. It should come off the bracket and pipe fairly easily.

It could be worth fitting one of the old 'O' rings onto the new anti-sink sphere before fitting it, as it can help make the removal in the future easier.

[citroenxm]

Thats assuming that the gsf spheres have any pressure in them at all..

I never buy spheres from gsf now from personal experiance ive had flat spheres three times and some over a year old.

The best people to get them from are ifhs spheres from citroen services also known as aep.. they are almost always within 8 months old and really well gassed...

As for correct spheres. I couldnt tell you. As long as my xantias are like a boat and float then im happy.

[Mandrake]

Just collected the last two spheres from GSF and before they are fitted could someone please confirm they're the correct pressures/capacity.
The rear accumulator is 400cc 40 bar and the anti sink is 300cc 50 bar.

Neither of those are correct if that's whats written on them, both the "rear accumulator" (I'm assuming you mean the rear Hydractive regulator sphere!) and the anti-sink sphere are 50 bars, 400cc on all models of Hydractive Xantia. (In fact there is no such thing as a 300cc sphere on any Citroen let alone Xantia)

The difference between them is the Hydractive regulator sphere looks like an accumulator sphere (no damper valve) while the anti-sink sphere as well as having no damper valve has a pipe union fitting in the neck.

There was only one seal supplied, the normal one, with the anti sink and this is not a job I've had to do previously, is a seal needed at all or is the old one re used for the center connection.

For some reason everyone supplies a normal large sphere seal with the anti-sink sphere when it is not used! The sphere screws onto a thin threaded plate. On the other hand there IS a normal hydraulic union seal over the pipe that goes into the anti-sink sphere, which does not get supplied with the new sphere.

These can be obtained from Citroen however I've always just reused the original one - just remember to carefully extract the seal from the hole in the neck of the old anti-sink sphere before throwing it away and if its in good condition you can reuse it.

I've had the hydraflush in there for close on 1500 miles now and the ride has been deteriorating since, it's now riding low at the back,possibly has gone out of adjustment, and the back brakes aren't working as they should, bubbles have reared their ugly head having been instrumental in producing a hard ride, temporarily cured when it was ticking over on high for an hour while the brakes were bled.
I'm going out now to suck out the hydraflush and get some LHM back in there, be interesting to see how much difference it makes.

If you're seeing problems with bubbles causing harsh ride and its still the same after changing back to LHM you might want to take a look at this interesting thread:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=44923" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Xaccers]

I use the large o ring with the anti sink.

Last time I checked AEP were cheaper than GSF spheres too.

[Mandrake]

I use the large o ring with the anti sink.

Where exactly would you put it ? Its designed for the sphere to screw right onto the bracket. If you put an o-ring there its just going to stop it nipping up...

Last time I checked AEP were cheaper than GSF spheres too.

Yep, cheaper, and better. I'm happy with mine. All but one of mine were only 2-3 months old, the other was 10 months, all have been fine and continue to be 15 months later.

[Old-Guy]

I'm with Xac on both counts. It's while since I had to change any spheres, but using a seal with the A/S makes it easier to get off next time by stopping sphere and bracket rusting together and thus puts less strain on the rather flimsy (and inevitably rusty) bracket.

It's vital not to twist the A/S sphere's pipe: 9mm gland-nut spanner for the union (pre-soaked with penetrating fluid) undo it enough that it moves reasonably easily then crack off the sphere, hold the union with the gland nut while you wind the sphere off the bracket. Fit new sphere by screwing it onto the bracket several turns, then push the pipe (with seal on it) well into the sphere, get the gland nut well started by hand, being very careful not to cross thread it, then wind the sphere by hand on while holding the gland nut still. Hand-tighten the sphere (no more) before tightening the gland nut. Finally give the union and the sphere threads a good coating of white grease or similar.

[Mandrake]

Old Guy, I know most forum members say to loosen the 9mm gland nut a turn or two then hold the nut still with the spanner while turning the sphere but I can't agree with that method.

The reason is that the end of the pipe in these Citroen style hydraulic unions can and often do bind in the hole quite tightly, as the small hole where the pipe goes in is a slight taper for sealing purposes. Even if you fully undo the nut the tip of the pipe can still be bound tight in the hole and therefore the pipe will be twisted when you turn the sphere.

I always undo the nut as far as possible then wriggle the pipe side to side while pulling it outwards until it lets go, then I undo the sphere. I takes a bit longer to undo the nut with the limited swinging room but its safer IMHO.

[isisalar]

Thanks for all the interest and advice guys. Car as per signature. Due to the doubt about the spheres, my aged parents ill health, my aged computers ill health, and some work coming in unexpectedly I had to cancel the the Wednesday appointment and it's now going in tomorrow morning.
The sphere capacities it turns out was a guess based on the part no. so it would appear the anti sink is correct, GSF part no 453pc0030, the originally supplied 453pc0040 has now been exchanged for 453pc00110 which is described as a rear suspension sphere center 50bar pressure, HOWEVER it looks just like the anti sink sphere but with no thread in the central hole, the 40bar one had the normal type threaded section. The 453pc00110 was supplied against the no. from the present one which is correct according to the Hydractive for novices thread .
here it is:-
http://www.gsfcarparts.com/453pc0110" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They claim this should be correct
The new LHM has had a bit of effect, the car now no longer drops to the floor overnight and sometimes it also looks like it's riding at the correct height at the rear, sometimes not. I had an interesting experience yesterday, the ride was really getting on my nerves being very jiggly at low speeds, I noticed that the hydractive switch was on and probably had been for a few days, possibly weeks, the instant I turned it off the front end became as soft as a mattress and the rear may have improved also. After a few miles further, crashy ride returned. Running on high for a while while I took a picture of the needed sphere produced the pillow type ride again for a short while, Ive now tasted it and I want more! Bit like hotel california.
Reading back through the replies re the a/s sphere there's still something I need clarifying, is the feed pipe to the a/s just pushed in and then secured with the nut, or does it screw into the sphere as the sphere is screwed into the bracket. The threaded center hole and lack of on the other one is confusing me.
If someone could help here before I pay to have the wrong thing fitted or removed I'd be eternally gratefull. I suppose worst way I'll have the droplinks done and surely one of these must be correct at least.
Cheers
Paul

[Hell Razor5543]

Once you have had the spheres replaced I would run a Citrobics session, just to make sure any air in the pipework has been moved out.

[citroenxm]

Just run the system for 5 mins with the Regulator Screw Open! Thats the Bleed process! The pump is still pushing fluid around the system even with the regulator open!

[Mandrake]

Just run the system for 5 mins with the Regulator Screw Open! Thats the Bleed process! The pump is still pushing fluid around the system even with the regulator open!

Actually this won't do anything to bleed the suspension or brakes. The pump is still pumping fluid around alright, to the pressure regulator and straight back to the tank in a small loop!

With no pressure the anti-sink valves will be cut-off so the suspension will be completely isolated. Even without the anti-sink system unless the height corrector is admitting and removing oil from the suspension the suspension remains isolated. Only by raising and lowering the suspension (a long way) will it be bled.

[citroenxm]

Really? Ok. Fair enough. Never thought about that before..

Learning all the time..

[Mandrake]

The sphere capacities it turns out was a guess based on the part no. so it would appear the anti sink is correct, GSF part no 453pc0030, the originally supplied 453pc0040 has now been exchanged for 453pc00110 which is described as a rear suspension sphere center 50bar pressure, HOWEVER it looks just like the anti sink sphere but with no thread in the central hole,

That's correct, the rear hydractive centre sphere will have a big hollow inside the neck where a damper valve usually goes and will look exactly like an accumulator sphere.

the 40bar one had the normal type threaded section.

The only spheres that are 40 bars are rear strut (corner) spheres for an Estate. I can't think of any other location where 40 bars is used.

The new LHM has had a bit of effect, the car now no longer drops to the floor overnight and sometimes it also looks like it's riding at the correct height
at the rear, sometimes not. I had an interesting experience yesterday, the ride was really getting on my nerves being very jiggly at low speeds, I noticed that the hydractive switch was on and probably had been for a few days, possibly weeks, the instant I turned it off the front end became as soft as a mattress and the rear may have improved also. After a few miles further, crashy ride returned. Running on high for a while while I took a picture of the needed sphere produced the pillow type ride again for a short while, Ive now tasted it and I want more! Bit like hotel california.

Oh dear Paul, once you've tasted that ultra smooth pillow like ride you'll never be happy with a harsh crashy ride, been there done that.

Did you look at that thread I linked to by cc101 regarding the air bubbles and the return pipe modification in the hydraulic tank ?

Of course there could be other things that are not right that are contributing to an intermittently harsh ride, for example if you say the ride height is intermittently too high or too low that would certainly contribute, flat spheres, and worn drop links, lower balljoints etc will also contribute to harsh ride but generally aren't intermittent.

But at the end of the day if everything else is right and you still get crashy ride it might be worth checking out. The fact that you get a soft pillow like ride for a short time after the car has been sitting at maximum height does point towards air bubbles being pumped into the system, as if your spheres were flat, or there were mechanical problems like ball joints or bearings it would always be crashy.

What happens is if you let the car sit on maximum height for a while any air bubbles in the suspension lines coalesce together into one or more large bubbles at high points in the piping to each corner then when you lower the suspension to normal height this large coalesced bubble is flushed out of the suspension leaving you temporarily with bubble free oil in the suspension, thus a lovely soft ride.

As you continue to drive the car each height corrector has to make occasional corrections to the ride height - particularly the rear which constantly makes small height adjustments due to acceleration squat, every time an upwards correction is made new aerated oil containing bubbles is pumped into the suspension so gradually the quantity of air in the lines increases as you drive and the ride goes back to being crashy...that's why Citrerobics is only a temporary fix for cars with this problem.

Reading back through the replies re the a/s sphere there's still something I need clarifying, is the feed pipe to the a/s just pushed in and then secured with the nut, or does it screw into the sphere as the sphere is screwed into the bracket. The threaded center hole and lack of on the other one is confusing me.

You know what the female union looks like on a normal hydraulic pipe fitting right ? On a height corrector, K junction, suspension strut (non-hydractive) ? If not it looks like this: (image borrowed from another forum member)


("a" is the rubber seal, remember to save the one out of the old anti-sink sphere unless you have a new one)

Well the threaded hole in an anti-sink sphere is EXACTLY the same. Personally I treat it like any other hydraulic union - unscrew the nut and remove the pipe BEFORE unscrewing the sphere from the threaded plate, then screw the new sphere onto the threaded plate, then insert and tighten the pipe as you would in any other hydraulic union.

The important thing is never unscrew the anti-sink sphere while the nut on the pipe is still done up or you WILL twist the pipe and snap it.

[isisalar]

Simon thank you so much for that, I'll sleep a lot better tonight.
So the nut encloses the pipe and screws into the sphere? Must be a very thin pipe, I can see why it's so easy to twist it. BL auto's gave me a couple of 4.5mm seals FOC Champion indy
Cheers
Paul