Advice on oil/filter for Xantia V6 ? / Noisy tappets.

[Mandrake]

Hi All,

I'm due to do an engine oil and filter change on my 1998 Xantia V6 (ES9J4) and was wanting to get opinions on whether anyone has tried fully synthetic in theirs ? If so what type and rating ? (Also recommended brand of oil filter)

Not only is an oil/filter due (over 1 year and 4000 miles since the last known change, and hasn't been done yet in my year of ownership) but I'm wanting to try to quiet down the hydraulic tappets which are intermittently quite noisy, particularly the first few minutes after a cold start, but sometimes even when warmed up they can be quite noisy.

I know its normal for hydraulic tappets to be a bit noisy for maybe the first 30 seconds or so from a cold start as they pump up the pressure in their shafts, but I think they're unusually noisy and never really quieten down much.

For many months I've been chasing intermittent low power in the low/mid range on this engine and have ruled out a lot of other possibilities and fixed a few things and made incremental improvements along the way but it currently looks like the ECU may be retarding the timing due to mechanical noise picked up by the knock sensor, possibly from hydraulic tappet clatter...

(Discussed here: http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... &start=675" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

It's been suggested that fully synthetic oil can sometimes be beneficial to help clean out or at least make sticky hydraulic tappets behave themselves, so I want to treat the old girl to some to see if it will quieten down the tappets and help with the low power problem...

I was also considering trying an additive like the following with the new oil:

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_255221" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has anyone dealt with noisy hydraulic tappets before and had any success quietening them down ? On a 14 year old engine that has done 103,500 miles do I run any risk of leaking seals if I change to fully synth oil ? I understand that sometimes it can clean out sludge against worn gaskets causing the gaskets to leak...

Any advice gratefully received... basically the object is to try to quieten the tappets as much as possible to rule this out as the cause of unusual knock sensor activity...

[Ben82]

The recommended (with obvious brand affiliation) for the ES9J4S in the C5 is the Total Quartz 9000 5W-40, which is fully synth. I'm surprised a fully synth wouldn't be recommended (and standard) for the ES9J4 too?

From my reading for the oil filter (same one is used in both ES9J4 and ES9J4S I believe) for mine the Bosch ones are pretty much defacto, did also read somewhere that the Mann Filter (slightly more expensive) is exactly the same as the Bosch one just different branding. I don't think you want to go for anything less than the Bosch.

Whenever I hear a Wynns product mentioned it always makes me think of this ad:


Personally for my self-service, just for keeping to 1 supplier and to keep overall costs down, I'm most likely going to be getting Mahle filters along with Shell Helix from opie.

[CitroJim]

Simon,

I always stick Costco's finest in mine and change it about every 5K. Never a problem..

You don't need to spend gazillions on oil. Just get stuff that meets the necessary API S/C specs. and change it and the filter regularly.

I've never subscribed to the school of exotic oils, ever...

Make sure you use the correct V6 filter and don't get fobbed off with the XU(D)/HDi one. They fit but are a lot smaller than the pukka job.

Whenever I hear a Wynns product mentioned it always makes me think of this ad:

Always makes me giggle!

[Mandrake]

Normally I would agree Jim, with an engine that's running normally and has been kept to a good servicing schedule...I've never put "fancy" oil in a car before either, (not even semi-synth let alone synth) on the other hand this is the first car I've owned with hydraulic tappets, and as you know the engine is not behaving and running "normally".

It could be that the hydraulic tappet inlets are blocked with varnish or sludge in which case something more than a normal change of oil might be required to get them back to a clean and fully functioning state...

On the basis of "what have I got to lose" I picked up some of that Wynns additive and put it in tonight...(I can always put another one in after the oil change) and have done about 30 miles running errands and although I'm probably imagining it I think I can notice a difference...

The responsiveness and power does still vary from minute to minute as driving conditions change but the "better" end of the range seems quite a lot better... even at low rpm it sometimes pulls away very rapidly and responsively although not so well at other times, sometimes just minutes later...

It really does feel like something like timing retard is holding it back intermittently, and when its not being "held back" it goes very well indeed... my hunch is that the learnt knock table (which will be at least a 2d table of rpm versus map sensor load) has a number of high retard figures filled in at certain locations so that when you hit that combination of rpm and load its sluggish whilst at other combinations not so much.

Problem is I'm nearly out of petrol and I plan to try some Shell V-Power for my next fill up (instead of BP unleaded 95 that I normally use) so that will throw two variables into the mix at once! Perhaps I just expect too much out of 95 octane petrol when the engine is tuned for 98...perhaps some of the intermittent hesitation at lower rpm I notice is simply the knock sensor doing its job on low octane fuel! I guess time will tell.

PS very funny video... do I detect an Australian accent or has my ability to detect down under accents been ruined by living on the top side for nearly 4 years ? (I can't even always pick NZ accents reliably any more...)

[CitroJim]

It's over 20 years since I've lived down under Simon and I can still recognise the accent no problem at all and I'm not a native... Both Aussie ad Kiwi...

Of course it's Aussie. I mean, who else would would call it that? Typical Aussie humour...

I always had the belief that in Aus there actually was a brand of easy-start called 'Start Ya Bastard'. Maybe Addo can elucidate...

EDIT: On the oil/tappet issue just use cheap diesel oil and change it initially very frequently as you did with the gearbox. Using diesel oil with its greater detergent action will help flush out any sludge...

I've done it in the past and noted the oil get dirty very quickly in a petrol engine after the first change and then taking longer and longer to darken with subsequent changes.

[Mandrake]

This one Jim ?

http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Aeroso ... Xt7dMu9KSM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CitroJim]

This one Jim ?

http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Aeroso ... Xt7dMu9KSM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the one Simon! Don't you just love it

[Mandrake]

Well I'll be damned.

I only put that Wynns additive in yesterday (the hydraulic tappet one, not the "start you bastard" ) and did around 30 miles yesterday.

Today I started the engine cold and in the few, maybe 5 seconds that it took me to get from the drivers seat to standing in front of the engine bay the tappets were completely silent! Not just quieter than before but no ticking/clatter from the top end at all. Zero. The difference was night and day, definitely not subtle or imaginary. Even lifting the engine speed up to 2000 rpm or more they were still totally silent. It's amazing just how quiet the engine is when the tappets are working properly.

After a few minutes of running maybe one or two stubborn ones were ticking a little bit again but nothing like the cacophony of noisy tappets that were there before. In the whole time I've had the car the tappets have always been quite noisy, noisier when cold, not much quieter when hot, and never silent... but having no reference to compare it to I just accepted it. Now that I've heard how quiet (silent basically) they can be its made it obvious just how noisy they have been!

Obviously I don't expect miracles from one bottle of additive added into manky old oil (I'm stunned it had such an effect so quickly even if it doesn't last) but it has shown that there is a lot of room for improvement and that either the oilways to the tappets are blocked or the one way ball valves are not sealing due to varnish/carbon buildup etc...

So it looks like a good flush with new oil is a very good idea indeed. So you think using some diesel oil for the first change as a flushing oil might be beneficial Jim ? Then drop it out after a month or so and put the final stuff in ? I assume you'd suggest I replace the filter the second time as well since any stuff dislodged during the flushing will end up stuck in the filter...

[Hell Razor5543]

Well, it looks like you are getting there! I personally never have had this problem, but I would be inclined to treat the engine to the same level of oil changes as you did to the gearbox. I wonder if using a proper oil flush would help (Forte is a name that keeps showing up, but I have no experience of any of them)?

[Northern_Mike]

Get the manky old oil changed. That will likely solve it. When I used to run Fords, especially the CVH engined ones, the tappets used to get SO NOISY nearing oil change time that you'd think the engine was on it''s last legs. Oil change = silent tappets again, for about 6000 miles..

[CitroJim]

Simon, did you put the snake oil (sorry, Wynns) in with the old oil or with fresh oil?

If the former then do as Mike says and then report back

[Xantidote]

But what you haven't told us Simon, is, having put the additive in and driven 30 miles, was there any change in the engine's performance - keeping us all in suspense

Many moons ago, I used an oil additive in a Renault 5 petrol engine, and I'm sure that the engine ran a little quieter for it. I think the manufacturer claimed that something in the additive (maybe molybdenum?) coated the metal surfaces, and as such, the benefits weren't then lost at the next oil change.

Interested to hear how sludgey the old oil is, when it comes out, Good luck.

EDIT - sorry, just read your other post/epistle, and so far it seems no joy. At least you've not yet run out of ideas

[Mandrake]

Simon,

I always stick Costco's finest in mine and change it about every 5K. Never a problem..

Hi Jim,

I'm considering getting my engine oil from Costco as the other half is a member, which is the exact one you use for the V6, and what is its viscosity rating ?

Make sure you use the correct V6 filter and don't get fobbed off with the XU(D)/HDi one. They fit but are a lot smaller than the pukka job.

Any idea whether any of these three are the full size one or whether they are the smaller HDi one ?

http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/oil-fil ... 82_g7.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't have the dimensions of the small and large sizes you're referring to, if you know the diameter of the full size one that would be helpful.

I don't know much about oil filter brands and their quality to be honest so any pointers would be appreciated. I'm assuming the Bosch one would be decent but not necessarily the best one ? The Mann one is considerably longer although whether that's a good thing and it will still fit I don't know. (All three list as a match for my engine on their website but I never entirely trust such matches!)

[CitroJim]

Simon, I use their 10W-40 one for everything...

Filters, look on the 'bay. Here’s a genuine one for very small money.

Use the search term 'Xantia V6 oil filter' and you'll be hit by thousands of hits...

Factors sell them but normally at an expensive price..

[Mandrake]

Thanks Jim, I've ordered that oil filter. I was looking on the Costco website last night and couldn't find any engine oil at all, do I have to give the secret stone cutters handshake (Simpsons reference ) before being able to see all their product listings ?