Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

isisalar
Posts: 666
Joined: 27 Apr 2008, 14:16
x 1

Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by isisalar » 24 Apr 2013, 16:45

Hi Guys Re changing washers and seals to cure leaks and whistling
Well I finally plucked up the courage and returned to the scene of the crime( I'd broken the fuel filter housing on the previous attempt and had to abandon doing the job properly)to find that diesel was now leaking from no 4 injector, not surprised as this was the one that was evidently loose after test drive first time around. By no. 4 I mean the one on the right looking at the windscreen.
This one came out easily and the seal was totally destroyed. 3 was the one done previously so I left this alone. 2 was obviously newish and unless it fell off and I missed it it had no seal at all. 1 was a bit stiff to come out and I had to use pliers to remove the seal. The copper washer didn't come out with this one and appears to be superglued to the block.
Needing to get mobile again I have now fitted all new seals and washers where possible, no leaking now but if anything the whistling is slightly worse. I yesterday enjoyed my first 50 miles for a gallon having cured the leak(s).
I got some more new washers today and am going to have another go but I need some advice please.
What's the best way to remove this stuck washer? Drills and hammers are obviously out of the question. Would running with the injector loose for a while be a stupid thing to do. A good soak in plus gas is the best I can think of, and maybe some sort of hooked tool. I just thought of using one of those expanding metal bolts used for concrete, and then thought of the consequences if it dropped through, I feel faint now.
I consulted the BOL on this subject today and they say that it is imperative that as well as the seals and washers, the clamp nuts and the high pressure hoses!!! are all replaced as well. Any comments?
I never even attempted to clean up the seat on no 3 so that's a likely whistling candidate, and no 1 certainly must have the washer changed. no 3 was leaking for a good few months so has no doubt got a lot of crud to be removed, anything better than plus gas for this?
One last question, is this whistling indeed caused by leaking washer seals?
Thanks for all the help so far, nearly there now.
Kind regards
Paul

User avatar
CGATCX25GTITURBO
Posts: 281
Joined: 21 Nov 2010, 11:58
x 3

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by CGATCX25GTITURBO » 24 Apr 2013, 17:38


citroenxm
Posts: 7812
Joined: 31 Dec 2004, 00:10
x 27

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by citroenxm » 24 Apr 2013, 18:04

Hi there..

For copper washer removal, I use a long screw driver that just catches the inner of the copper washer and twist it out.

be carefull though you dont catch the sidewall or seat, but with the washer in you shouldn't harm the seat.

Theres a plastic upper seat too that needs to go on. I have NEVER needed to replace the high pressure pipes from the rail to the injectors... and not had any leaks.. Ive also NEVER replaced any clamps, I cant see why you'd need to anyway.

The compression past the injector will be from a poorly copper seal, and possibly the upper pastic seat...

isisalar
Posts: 666
Joined: 27 Apr 2008, 14:16
x 1

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by isisalar » 24 Apr 2013, 19:45

Thanks guys
The tool looks good but I can't justify that much on something I'd only use once CGA.
Citroën Xm ,.it was the copper clamp nuts BOL said couldn't be re used. Renewing the high pressure pipes is obviously ridiculous The clamp nuts must be copper for a reason I suppose, but I can't think what it is ,possibly heat dissipation. Great idea with the screwdriver, I've got a square section shank one that should be ideal and I'll give it a try tomorrow and report.
Kind regards
Paul

User avatar
CGATCX25GTITURBO
Posts: 281
Joined: 21 Nov 2010, 11:58
x 3

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by CGATCX25GTITURBO » 24 Apr 2013, 20:28

That was an example of what to look for, there will be second hand ones around, I got them for my 1.6hdi picasso... I'd heard the horror stories about stuck injectors and the dealers want 120 quid or so just to attempt to get the injectors out. My son has a HDI xsara too so I spent the money on the tools recommended by Lighty. Well worth the money, the injectors came out after getting the engine hot, and only one of the washers were stuck. The tool saved all the (-expletive removed-) about in the world, it took seconds, the seats weren't scratched but I ran the seat cutter over them, shoved it back together in double quick time, and it's been great ever since... for me it was worth it to not fiddle and prat about.

I'll be leaving them in the tool box

citroenxm
Posts: 7812
Joined: 31 Dec 2004, 00:10
x 27

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by citroenxm » 24 Apr 2013, 20:33

The 8v hdi is NEVER a problem with injector removal..

The 16v heads are the problem heads mainly the early 2.2 16v engine as the injectors pass through tight tunnels in the inlet manifold... The later PSA 1.6 16v head is fine for injector removal.. but Ive not worked on a 2.0 DW 16v unit yet.. Not heard of problems on these.

User avatar
spider
Posts: 3949
Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 15:28
x 63

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by spider » 25 Apr 2013, 11:41

I think the "replace pipes!" is because as far as I know they were designed as a once only fitment.

Looking at other manufacturers, it seems Ford also "recommend" they are replaced but glancing at a BOL for a Toyota D4D unit they say to replace if new parts are fitted either side, ie if its the same pump / rail / injectors they can be re-used.

I also note the BOL for the HDi says that the sensor in the rail should never be removed as well, not quite sure why. Assume its not available separately, like the pump solenoid although I have read / heard of them being replaced with used units to cure running issues without concern.

Not sure on the clamp nut business though, unless they are nylock (cannot remember) but that does not seem likely.

c.morewood
donor 2018
Posts: 980
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 15:38
x 19

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by c.morewood » 25 Apr 2013, 14:37

I'd use some thing like thinners to eat away the tar holding the washer in place and use the screwdriver method described above.

citroenxm
Posts: 7812
Joined: 31 Dec 2004, 00:10
x 27

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by citroenxm » 25 Apr 2013, 20:19

spider wrote:
I also note the BOL for the HDi says that the sensor in the rail should never be removed as well, not quite sure why. Assume its not available separately, like the pump solenoid although I have read / heard of them being replaced with used units to cure running issues without concern.

Not sure on the clamp nut business though, unless they are nylock (cannot remember) but that does not seem likely.
Theres no nylock on the nut at all... the useual BOL crap here I think!

The rail pressure sensor that sits facing downwards is PERFECTLY fine to remove, and heres the Best Bit! The rail is self sealing when the sensor is removed, IE: No fuel AT ALL comes out the rail!!!!

Experiance here tells me too..

isisalar
Posts: 666
Joined: 27 Apr 2008, 14:16
x 1

Re: Hdi injector seals and whistling(Again)

Post by isisalar » 26 Apr 2013, 19:35

Well I gave it a go and here's the report. No.1 out first and left to soak in plus gas while I did the rest, all dead easy. The BOL advised that the injectors should be disconnected from the leak off rail by removing the metal clips on the top and removing the connector from the injector. Previously I'd been pulling off the leak off pipes very carefully. The connectors were a bit stiff to pull out and I had to resort to very gently prising a couple out with a screwdriver, but all good.
Then set about no1 with a specially bought screwdriver, as per Citroen XM's suggestion, thank you. A bit of persuasion and out came the washer, cleaned up the seat and refitted the injector. All injectors now have new washers on clean seats and new seals. Connected everything up start the engine and diesel is flowing out of, I found, the top of no 3. Checked, re fitted and lost the clip a few times and diagnosed that it must be the connector, even though it looked fine. Edwards and son to the rescue, they posted me 2 off and they arrived this morning.
As soon as I saw the new connector I realised the problem, there was an o ring in a groove on this one, and the groove and the o ring of the old one must still be in the injector, it had fractured in the groove. So out with no3 again, careful use of a bradawl got the little rascals out of the injector, new connector on injector re fitted and now is running fine and no leaks.
However, its still whistling like billi-O. I noticed when I removed no 3 that the washer showed virtually no signs of compression at all, certainly nothing like as much as the old ones I removed originally. I'm pretty sure I've got them as tight as they as they can be with the existing copper nuts and I'm wondering about these new nuts as in the BOL. I'm sure I could get the washers to compress nicely with steel nuts, but why copper nuts? Is it an Ally head? That could explain.
I'm determined to beat this whistling but my back's had enough over bonnet work for a while.
Thanks for all the help so far and any further advice is very welcome.
As an aside to this- Edwards and son only charged me £8+vat + postage, fantastic service and value. As a contingency plan I contacted a new Citroen owned dealership at Staples corner to see what the part would be from them and how available was it,- complete rail only available for £11.75 +vat, delivery next day! They had earlier got me the washers in, phoned at 10.am, ready for collection at 1.00 pm. An extremely good and sadly unusual level of service. Mind you the parts guy had never heard of LHM but top marks for Citroen Staples corner, I think they call themselves Citroen Brent cross.
Cheers guys
Paul