AL4 Gearbox - Question relating to it

[MaxPrimal]

Hi guys.

I am trying to get a price for an oil change on my AL4 gearbox as I suspect it has never been done. My local garage cannot find anything relating to it making them think it is a sealed unit and therefore not possible to do an oil change on.

Obviously I know from reading on here it IS possible to do the oil change and I will drop them an email later advising of this and pointing to a few post on here which confirm people have done it.

But just so I know, what is the difference between a sealed unit and (presumably) a non-sealed unit?

Thanks
Max

[Ben82]

http://www.kit-group.ru/sections/AL4%20Transmission.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Should help the mechanic (or you) Page 15 has about checking the oil, so gives you the location of the drain plug and the filler plug.

As for the sealed vs non-sealed thing, this should help: http://www.autotransgloucester.co.uk/sealedunits.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mandrake]

It's only "sealed for life" in that Citroen don't specify any oil change interval in the service schedule. It's not physically sealed.

It has a drain plug, it has a way to fill it back up (through the dipstick hole on early models, through the breather hole on later models) it has a way to check the oil level after a change (a dipstick on early models or a level plug on later models) and the oil is available to buy over the counter - Mobil LT71141. (Not any form of Dexron or other stuff, they will kill it)

Therefore the oil can be changed. The Citroen service data that Ben linked to even shows how to check the oil level - which unfortunately requires access to a Lexia/ELIT to do properly as the oil must be at quite a specific temperature for the level plug version of the gearbox to get the level right. (60 degrees) Also on an AL4 there is an oil wear counter which is supposed to be updated every time you change the oil, which is described in the Citroen service data. (Easy to do with a Lexia/ELIT which is needed to check the temperature anyway)

Because an oil change only drains approximately half the oil if its never been done in the life of the car it could be REALLY dirty (black in fact) and require as many as three changes spaced over a period of time to get the oil nice and clean, so if you get an oil change done ask for a sample of the drained oil to inspect how dirty it is. See my pictures of the oil out of my 4HP20 - which is a similar box, also "sealed for life" and uses the same oil, this box had done 100,000 miles:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... &start=300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The oil was so dirty that one change hardly made any visual impact on it...it wasn't until the 3rd change that it started to look like oil instead of tar.

[MaxPrimal]

Hi Thanks for this Guys.

I knew of your post Mandrake and I have referenced that to the garage I have also sent them the link on the gearbox as I appreciate a small mechanic cannot know every gearbox variation out there - so even they need to look things up and learn.

I will wait and see what they say tomorrow and go from there. Hopefully I will get a reasonable answer now I have given them the info on the box.

Thanks for explaining the Sealed for Life thing. Got me wondering even though I thought it would make diddly squat difference to things!

Cheers
Max

[Mandrake]

It's just marketing speak unfortunately. Just consider it "sealed for warranty life" and that's closer to the truth. In another thread someone speculated that the motivation behind "sealed for life" is to minimize the on-paper TCO for vehicle fleet operators by eliminating the gearbox oil changes from the maintenance schedule. If it lasts through the warranty period until the fleet operators sell the car on to the unsuspecting public, who cares if it kills the gearbox at half the mileage that it would last with regular oil changes!

[MaxPrimal]

It's just marketing speak unfortunately. Just consider it "sealed for warranty life" and that's closer to the truth. In another thread someone speculated that the motivation behind "sealed for life" is to minimize the on-paper TCO for vehicle fleet operators by eliminating the gearbox oil changes from the maintenance schedule. If it lasts through the warranty period until the fleet operators sell the car on to the unsuspecting public, who cares if it kills the gearbox at half the mileage that it would last with regular oil changes!

That would actually figure to a large degree. That and a manufacturer doing something to ensure the gearbox is left well alone for the warranty and minimise their risk of being exposed to an issue found but a through service and check. After all if it's under warranty they pay for it, the day after well as the old saying goes "KERCHING!!!" (Eyes light up in $$$$ signs ).

Oh well, can't blame Citroen or any other manufacturer. I always remember a friend who got a car and noticed two parts on the warranty: The gearbox was covered except the physical gears themselves. The engine cylinder head was covered unless it develops a crack... Most people would ask what else will go wrong with a cylinder head or a gear box normally.... Ohwell...

Let's see what my mechanic says .

Thanks
Max

[Ben82]

Max, wasn't this the garage that wanted to charge you an insane amount for a lexia read? (almost the cost of a chinese lexia if i recall).

It's odd that the AL4 "top up and check" documentation is by far better worded than the 4HP20 one! Almost makes the 4HP20 one seem like it's written by cowboys

[MaxPrimal]

Max, wasn't this the garage that wanted to charge you an insane amount for a lexia read? (almost the cost of a chinese lexia if i recall).

It's odd that the AL4 "top up and check" documentation is by far better worded than the 4HP20 one! Almost makes the 4HP20 one seem like it's written by cowboys

No they charge me £20+VAt for a lexia read, there was another local garage (who are an "official Citroen repairer" who wanted £50+Vat for a lexia test.

The other good thing about this garage is I can drop the car to them and walk home in 30 mins. They are close enough to be local for me which is also good.

Max

[flying clutchman]

Just a quick comment on the gearbox drain plug issue. I have a friend (who is now ceo of large national company) who back in the eighties was a buyer for fords. One night in the pub I was moaning about the lack of a drain plug in mk3 escort gearboxes. His response was 'that was the top employees suggestion last year, it saves us 1/2p per unit'. I thought PSA group had ignored this massive cost saver until I did a clutch on a 2006 P307 this week and saw that there was no drain plug on the gearbox. This is basically the same box that's been used in all the 1-6litre engines since the P205 and citoen saxo.

[spider]

It was me who speculated about the reduction in the TCO for larger buyers, ie fleets, I still think that too aka 'sealed for life' is 'warranty life' , its not just PSA my Astra's autobox they said the same but a few oil changes later (!) and fixing the multiswitch on it restored normality.

Regarding no drain on a manual box, the later BE3 units do not appear to have one. Thinking about it the very early (84 ish) ones did not have a level plug, you had to measure and refill.

I also seem to think later models (206's petrols especially) did not have an external fuel filter anymore, probably rely on the in tank mesh screen.

The only other example that springs to mind is the early 306's, they had a 'sidelight' green warning light in the dash, later models did not although its all there just wanted a bulb. The savings over a few '00000 vehicles soon add up.

[flying clutchman]

I think the oil issue is very different in auto and manual boxes. On the mabnual boxes the biggest problem is bearing failure. Obviously selector forks etc. wear without good lubrication, but most gearboxes I've come accross fail through bearing failure. The usual thing is a slight oil leak, which over a period of months drains the oil to a level where the bearings start running dry. A gearbox dipstick (as in Lancia beta range in 70s) would be a good idea for any car. No chance of it happening though!

[Mandrake]

I think its fair to say that manual gearboxes don't "need" oil changes as such though, not in the same way that an automatic does. As long as it doesn't leak you could argue that a good manual box is more or less sealed for life.

All you really have is some bearings and a bunch of meshed gears spinning around dipped in an oil pan so that all the contacting and rotating parts are splashed in oil, with the syncro cones being the only thing even remotely delicate. The only purpose of the oil in a manual gearbox is lubrication, it doesn't perform any functional role. Eventually tiny particles will wear off gears and get into the oil accelerating wear further but it will be a very long time before something breaks unless you're unlucky.

No high pressure oil pump and filter, no valve body with a half dozen electrovalves, dozens of complex and delicate slide valves and a rats nest of small interconnecting orifices, no wet clutches that have to carry the full engine torque to wear out and shed containment particles into the oil which then block the filter and jam the slide valves, no need to use the oil to transfer torque (torque converter fluid coupling) no need to use the oil to cool the gearbox etc, (when was the last time you saw a heat exchanger for the oil on a manual gearbox. oil in an auto runs at 80-110 degrees even with cooling) in short the oil in an automatic does so much more:

1) Lubrication
2) Power transfer and torque multiplication
3) Cooling
4) Hydraulic servo functions (slide valves operating hydraulic clutches)

It literally gets put through the wringer by the gearbox so its no wonder it deteriorates and gets badly contaminated! The fact that the same oil circulates around the box taking turns performing all these functions is also why failures tend to cascade - for example if the oil gets contaminated because a worn clutch is shedding material into the oil that can then lead to the filter getting clogged up or stuff getting lodged in delicate valves, that may then cause the pressure to drop or the servo functions to malfunction which may cause clutches to slip, overheat and shed even more particles etc... Keeping the oil clean as possible in a preventative way helps prevent that domino effect from starting.

[flying clutchman]

Yeah, makes a lot of sense, that's pretty much what I thought about autos. I find people stressing an awfull lot about oil in manual boxes, but I tend to agree with your assessment , basically that there's not a lot to cause severe degradation of oil in a manual box, the most important thing is there's enough of it! Be prepared for a tsunami of posts disagreeing!

[spider]

Oh I do agree that manual oil should not really warrant changing often. I had my 205 seven years, I changed the gearbox oil when I got it (it was low anyway so I thought I'd change it instead of topping up) and about 4 years later when I put a clutch in I had fresh oil then as well.

[flying clutchman]

I think the oil issue is very different in auto and manual boxes. On the mabnual boxes the biggest problem is bearing failure. Obviously selector forks etc. wear without good lubrication, but most gearboxes I've come accross fail through bearing failure. The usual thing is a slight oil leak, which over a period of months drains the oil to a level where the bearings start running dry. A gearbox dipstick (as in Lancia beta range in 70s) would be a good idea for any car. No chance of it happening though!

Sorry that should read 1 litre-1.6 litre not 1-6litre! I hate to see that weedy box coupled to a 6l engine!