WVO bandits

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myglaren
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WVO bandits

Post by myglaren »

WVO being stolen from restaurants to produce illegal biodiesel, says The Beeb.
Costing the treasury £meeeelions.

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Xaccers
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Re: WVO bandits

Post by Xaccers »

It wasn't me, I wasn't anywhere near there guv, you can't prove a thing.

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CitroJim
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Re: WVO bandits

Post by CitroJim »

Gosh. Whatever next... :shock:

Many, many years ago before biodiesel was even dreamed of, oil (grease) theft from catering establishments was parodied in an episode of the Simpsons when Homer saw it as a get rich quick scheme which went hilariously wrong...

Still, waste oil being converted into biodiesel is possibly the best thing that comes out of the likes of MaccyDs, BK and the rest :twisted: It's got to be better than what they laughably describe as food...

HMRC may have the last laugh on this lot in a subtle way. It's likely these crooks are putting their health and life expectancy severely at risk by making biodiesel. It needs large quantities of methanol and sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) to make the stuff and those two chemicals are pretty dangerous if not correctly handled... It can both poison and blow up...

So, it'll be self-limiting as the crooks croak from methanol poisoning and related reasons arising from biodiesel production.

Any amateur who tries to make biodiesel is, in my humble, a complete certifiable lunatic.

evilally
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Re: WVO bandits

Post by evilally »

I’m sorry, but 90% of that article is poorly researched tosh and more or less amounts to propaganda.

“Used cooking oils from commercial sites cannot be poured down the drains and must be collected by a waste carrier.”

Anyone can collect used cooking oil without a waste carrier’s license, provided it is not for commercial use. The only obligation is that a Waste Transfer Note is issued, which anyone can issue. Practically nobody is pouring it down the drains these days, being that its worth up to 40ppl in some areas!

The commercial collectors perpetuate this myth that home brewers are all thieves and law breakers. They aggressively lobby government to abolish the 2,500 litre personal use allowance as clearly it is cutting into their lucrative business. Do not be confused by this article, the commercial collector couldn’t care less about a few underground biodiesel plants. However it is a useful tool to make life more difficult for the law abiding home brewer, who is collecting oil lawfully, and in large quantities. The BBC has swallowed this hook line and sinker; they have failed to see the bigger picture.

The fact of the matter is, the 2,500 limit was introduced as it was costing HMRC more money to collect tax from small producers than it was receiving back. Additionally, the 2,500 limit encourages local recycling. A lot of the oil collected by commercial carriers travels many hundreds of miles before being recycled, even as far as Europe.

Now no doubt there are those who go over their 2,500 limit and don’t pay tax, I don’t deny that. However with the high cost of fuel there will always be a certain element of this, much like the use of red diesel as a road fuel. How is punishing the majority of law abiding home brewers going to help this?

I note with interest that the BBC has chosen to quote from 2 large commercial collectors, apart from being one sided and biased, the large commercial operators are well known to use bully-boy tactics, mis-information and downright illegal means to obtain waste oil. I have frequently heard stories of commercial operators uplifting oil without the owner’s permission, which constitutes theft. They are frequently aggressive towards home brew collectors if they are competing on the same patch. To complain about oil “theft” is highly hypocritical in my opinion.

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Re: WVO bandits

Post by myglaren »

Interesting counterpoint Ally.
I don't doubt it for a moment.

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CitroJim
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Re: WVO bandits

Post by CitroJim »

myglaren wrote:Interesting counterpoint Ally.
Indeed, I enjoyed reading of the 'other side' Ally and I know what you say is quite correct...

It's the beeb. they wouldn't know what unbiased is even if it came up and kicked them.

Their motto is 'never let the facts get in the way of a good story' :twisted:

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Re: WVO bandits

Post by evilally »

Sorry guys, I was on my soap box, I've climbed off now :P

For the record, I've never made a litre of biodiesel in my life. Buying an XUD and using WVO is a lot less work, cheaper and safer. Jim is correct that BD production has its dangers and should be carefully considered and thouroughly researched before attempting. There are too many idiots out there heating plastic barrels full of methoxide :shock:


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Post by addo »

evilally wrote:There are too many idiots out there heating plastic barrels full of methoxide :shock:
Tautology? :lol:

It goes a way to explaining the drunken giraffes.

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Re: WVO bandits

Post by andy5 »

evilally wrote:Sorry guys, I was on my soap box, I've climbed off now :P

For the record, I've never made a litre of biodiesel in my life. Buying an XUD and using WVO is a lot less work, cheaper and safer. Jim is correct that BD production has its dangers and should be carefully considered and thouroughly researched before attempting. There are too many idiots out there heating plastic barrels full of methoxide :shock:

I've had a background interest in doing this, but never got around to it.

I have bought commercially produced bio from time to time though, and been struck that it must be difficult to make money from it, especially with the increasing price they have to pay for oil, and sure enough some suppliers have disappeared.

Too many of those home brew kits are based on conveniently shaped conical based plastic containers. The reaction needs heat, and the best temperature for it is too close to the melting point of the plastic.

I phoned up one such kit supplier a few years ago. What about surplus methanol, I asked. Just let it escape to the atmosphere, he replied. Errm, no thanks. Although it does disperse in air and degrade in a few days, having a concentration of a toxic and inflammable chemical in an enclosed space really isn't going to be clever. The people who build their own better designed plant use metal vessels and recycle surplus methanol without venting it.

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Re: WVO bandits

Post by Northern_Mike »

myglaren wrote:WVO being stolen from restaurants to produce illegal biodiesel, says The Beeb.
Costing the treasury £meeeelions.
Propaganda nonsense giving the Govt an excuse to ban the use of WVO or make us pay tax on it's usage as fuel again..

andy5
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Re: WVO bandits

Post by andy5 »

Northern_Mike wrote:
myglaren wrote:WVO being stolen from restaurants to produce illegal biodiesel, says The Beeb.
Costing the treasury £meeeelions.
Propaganda nonsense giving the Govt an excuse to ban the use of WVO or make us pay tax on it's usage as fuel again..
It certainly is nonsense. Commercial producers are paying duty, or will be closed down if operating fraudulently.

So even the large scale thieves being hinted at by referring to a single case were probably selling to a properly set up place.

There must be a bit of sharp practice going on in the borders between commercial and individual collectors though.

I read on another forum one bloke who has been producing his own bio for ages turned up at one restaurant he'd been going to regularly which had just recently changed hands. Someone else had recently collected the oil; perhaps a message had been garbled and they'd mistaken the stranger for him. Or perhaps not. The manager wanted a cash offer for oil in future. He replied he'd never paid for oil yet, but if the new bloke ever bothered to come back perhaps they would kindly ask him to kindly give back all the plastic containers he'd nicked.

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Re: WVO bandits

Post by evilally »

I didn't realise at the time, but one of the companies quoted in the article is Olleco, who used to go by the name Agri (or "Argo" as the private collectors call them). There are hundreds of horror stories of illegal activity perpetrated by this company on the internet. A favourite is for them to turn up at a premises and pose as representatives of another firm so they can uplift a rivals oil. They tell people that they are the only licensed collector in the area and that uplifts by anyone else are illegal. They will remove bought and paid for storage containers from a premises so that an individual collector is left out of pocket. Essentially they are notorious for using unethical and gangster like tactics. I can scarcely believe that the BBC has taken the side of a company like this.

evilally
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Re: WVO bandits

Post by evilally »

Northern_Mike wrote:
myglaren wrote:WVO being stolen from restaurants to produce illegal biodiesel, says The Beeb.
Costing the treasury £meeeelions.
Propaganda nonsense giving the Govt an excuse to ban the use of WVO or make us pay tax on it's usage as fuel again..
To be fair, this 2,500 litre allowance was introduced by the government in 2007. If they wanted to remove it, I think they just would. Remember it costs them money to collect tax on small quantities. In my mind, if there is large scale theft of oil and illegal biodiesel production, then it is highly unlikely that duty and VAT are being paid anyway, so existing legislation covers this illegal activity. I have no idea how scrapping the 2,500 limit would make any difference to someone already breaking the law. The logic is not sound.

evilally
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Re: WVO bandits

Post by evilally »

andy5 wrote:
evilally wrote:Sorry guys, I was on my soap box, I've climbed off now :P

For the record, I've never made a litre of biodiesel in my life. Buying an XUD and using WVO is a lot less work, cheaper and safer. Jim is correct that BD production has its dangers and should be carefully considered and thouroughly researched before attempting. There are too many idiots out there heating plastic barrels full of methoxide :shock:

I've had a background interest in doing this, but never got around to it.

I have bought commercially produced bio from time to time though, and been struck that it must be difficult to make money from it, especially with the increasing price they have to pay for oil, and sure enough some suppliers have disappeared.

Too many of those home brew kits are based on conveniently shaped conical based plastic containers. The reaction needs heat, and the best temperature for it is too close to the melting point of the plastic.

I phoned up one such kit supplier a few years ago. What about surplus methanol, I asked. Just let it escape to the atmosphere, he replied. Errm, no thanks. Although it does disperse in air and degrade in a few days, having a concentration of a toxic and inflammable chemical in an enclosed space really isn't going to be clever. The people who build their own better designed plant use metal vessels and recycle surplus methanol without venting it.

Yes, best to build your own. Cheaper and safer. A lot of the ready made kits are not much short of a bomb waiting to go off, and they usually cost a fortune. I bought an XUD engine car for the sole purpose of using WVO. I also blend with misfuel up to about 40%, as misfuel is free, ready to use and readily available. Blending it pre-filtering makes life very easy, in about an hour hands on time I can make 150 litres of fuel with a system that cost £120.

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Re: WVO bandits

Post by MikeT »

Hey, it's the BBC - the gown ups version of Jackanory :P

Misfuel, evilally? That's a new one on me, curious to know more about what you know (jus cos it's free like :lol: )