Burst hydraulic pipe above Alternator - possible repair ?

[charentejohn]

This relates in a way to this thread about a smoking alternator http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 86#p359286" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which was actually caused by hydraulic fluid leaking onto it, ooh nasty.

This is the pipe from the LHM reservoir to the top of the pump. I assume it is not high pressure as held with a jubilee clip ? so possibly the feed in ?
If so is it possible to repair it with a short length of pipe and a double ended metal junction piece, just replacing the last 10cm say ?
Dread to think what a new pipe costs, as well as the pain of fitting it.

There is a good garage locally who may be able to advise me, car can't be taken there but they are usually fine about advice, I assume they (being Citroen specialists, non approved) have had this before.

Jobs are just piling up, started with thinking of LHM flush change, alternator explodes, so do change now (may as well as everything off the car at present). So repair pipe, change to hydraflush, bleed brakes, fit new alternator and belt. It's a good thing I am retired.
I am off to the big city on Friday to pick up a part for my old transit as it is dead at the moment too so may try the local main Citroen parts dept while I am at it ?

I also have a new alternator and drive belt on the way, should be here tomorrow, think I will need them anyway as the current alternator will take some cleaning I would guess. Not worth the risk of putting it back, the replacemant from these guys was not too bad anyway http://www.mister-auto.com/alternateur/ ... 21032.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; such is life. They have a UK site but no alternators on there for this car, only France ?

[xantia_v6]

You should be able to make a simple repair to that hose, it is under a slight suction. Just make sure any replacement is lhm-proof and heat resistant.

[Xaccers]

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.vi ... 0455571712" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cut to length, wrap the ends in some gaffa tape and use jubilee clips to tighten.

[charentejohn]

Thanks guys, the suction bit makes sense as I raised the car to do the work and no puddle of LHM. However, once I had removed the drivebelt I turned the pump by hand, at this point LHM appeared to drip onto the alternator, so my turning about one turn by hand probably broke the suction seal ? hence the leak, about an eggcup full.

I wondered if taping would work and will use it as a second choice. First choice would be to replace part of the pipe, now I know it is under no real pressure I can sort something out.
I have a local tractor centre here that does all manner of hydraulics, hopefully if I take the hose in they can match a piece and supply a junction piece. Often you can buy a hose with a 90 degree bend meant for something else and cut that to suit.
Looking at prices the part (5270PT) is about £250 ??? as it says it is a complete unit of all hoses into a manifold on diagrams, but on mine it is just a rubber hose crimped to a metal pipe (the metal starting below the air filter).

Ideally it would have been nice if the 90 degree connection to the pump had been done in metal with the hose connecting straight, hoses always go on these sharp bends due to stress.
Looks like the connection is pressed into the pump body, shame as if it was removable I could have had a 90 degree one made and solved the problem. Still may be possible to make a 90 degree bend and attach with a short section of rubber pipe to the existing, then straight into the current pipe, I will have a measure tomorrow as my other parts won't be here until Friday.

I think the car will be off the road for a week or more to sort this lot out, I may be back with more questions.

[Xaccers]

Garden hose works as a temporary fix, it eventually goes hard though.
The main feed and return pipes on most Xantias are melded together next to each other on the side of the LHM resevoir so replacing the feed pipe on it's own isn't an option.
Cassy's been running with a silicone pipe for several years now. The resevoir end split last Friday so needed trimming and resecuring, hence my suggestion to wrap the ends of the new pipe in gaffa tape to protect them if you go that route.

[charentejohn]

Thanks Xac, being an electrician I have some self amalgamating tape, clever stuff as it sets into a lump of rubber, stretch it well when fitting and it usually forms a good seal.
Used mainly for sealing up the connections to such as earth rods to keep moisture out, end up as a golf ball sized lump.

Just checking for oil resistance, main ones are based on moisture resistance, my usual one is this http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/ ... tAodeDYADw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Seems there are dozens though although this is a ethylene propylene rubber, so it says and wikipedia says not compatible with most oils.
I believe LHM is oil based ?

I could try taping with gaffer tape then self amalgamating to seal it ?

[Mandrake]

I don't think 3M self amalgamating tape is LHM proof, (LHM is a low viscosity mineral oil) I have a roll of it myself but I wouldn't use it on an LHM line. I also don't think it can stand the heat on the top of the engine - I temporarily used some to repair a hole in one of my spark plug leads just on the top of the engine and when I checked it a week later the rubber had gone mushy and soft and clearly couldn't take the heat.

You're better off to cut off the bad length of hose, find some replacement hydraulic hose and make a join using a solid copper/bronze joiner with ribbing that you can then clamp the hoses onto with jubilee clips. Just make sure that the joiner wall thickness isn't too thick and doesn't restrict the inner diameter too much or the flow to the steering may be reduced causing heavy steering.

[Xaccers]

I wouldn't tape a split pipe, besides, it's split through age and hardening so it's likely to split elsewhere at some point in the future.

[charentejohn]

Ah I see what you mean now, taped to reinforce rather than repair.
I will see if I can get some small bore malleable copper pipe, all sizes here from 4mm in 2mm increments. I can bend this to 90 degrees and flare the ends a little to grip the jubilee clips. This should help grip the pipe, I will make sure it retains the same internal diameter.
Then just any good hose of the same diameter should do it.

If I was being brave I could but the 'bulge' off the pump connection and fit a 90 degree compression joint which would be the end of that problem, but I will try the new pipe first I think.

Just checked and the pipe on the pump is just under 10mm (a 10mm spanner is a little loose) and the end bulge is 11mm.
So I can buy annealed (soft) copper pipe in 10mm and a 90 deg. compression joint, I may have to file a little off the pump bulge to fit an olive, or maybe split the olive as it will close under compression ?
I can make a bulge in the copper pipe to fit the hose by using the compression joint to clamp an olive onto it, then remove the joint just leaving the olive (just remember to do it first).
Sounds like a plan and should only cost £12 or so for the parts, this would leave a permanent fix and exclude the weak spot of the tight bend in the pipe.

[isisalar]

A look in your local aquarium/pond shop would be in my experience very fruitful. They have all sorts of plastic elbows tees and straight connectors as well as a selection of hoses.
Between them and a motor factor you should be able to solve your problem.
Cheers
Paul

[Old-Guy]

Just a couple of points about plastic pipe and joiners: Anything on an engine has to cope with vibration, a 1G loading in any direction, heat and petrochemicals (even if it's not actually carrying or immersed in fuel, oil, coolant or hydraulic fluid, sooner or later it's going to get contaminated with one or more of them).

Got to replace all the breather hoses because they've gone not just hard, but brittle too and they should have been designed to be oil-proof (but not age proof).

[charentejohn]

Good points, just in the process of installing a permanent fix by using some 10mm copper pipe.
I considered that this would be solid, solderd 90 deg joint, and fit well into the pipe so hopefully not stressing it and splitting again.

I realised I had a spare 90 deg hose bend as the hose itself has a bend on the pump connection and another to turn 90 deg to the main pipe.
So I cut the whole end off, used the good bend on the pump side. This left me with a 90 deg (ish) gap, more like 80 deg to fit the hose angles.
So annealed the pipe bent it slightly, then soldered up with the 90 deg bend. Will add a photo when I have one.

I would have used the soft copper pipe you can buy in rolls but non around locally, I reckon that could be bent by hand and not need the soldered joint.
I do notice LHM seeps out of the cut end and pump inlet as I have the car on high (as I am also doing accessory belt etc) so under pressure, may not happen if on low ?
So as to the pressure these joints need to stand I guess not much, just some small pressure when not running, else slight suction as someone said earlier.
main pipe seems sound but I reckon the split was just due to vibration, tight turn right on the end of the inlet pipe so vibration of the rest of the pipe stressing it over time. Took 10 years but got it in the end

[charentejohn]

I did have a problem with this arrangement, the copper pipe shaved pieces off the inside of the hose http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 99#p360699" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; read before doing something like this. It works but be careful.