Garage negligence - what now ?

[Mandrake]

Those of you following my V6 broken exhaust thread will know some of the saga I've been through in the last 2 weeks regarding a tyre puncture, which has just taken a much more serious and scary turn tonight. Rather than continuing to hijack my own engine/gearbox issues thread I thought I should pull this out into another thread.

Basically I've just discovered tonight, thanks to a wheel speed ticking noise that occured at 60mph on the motorway when steering to the sides that the garage whom I have been dealing with have left ALL EIGHT wheel nuts loose on the front wheels. Of course as soon as I heard a funny noise from the front left I pulled over when I was off the motorway to check and I'll confess that I was shaking and a bit pale when I found just how loose the wheel nuts were on the left wheel - several turns loose each, and the nuts on the right wheel were at least one turn loose. I'm absolutely livid and given that my wheel is still not balanced either I'm wondering what action to take next.

I'll back the truck up to the beginning of the saga before I go any further, as there is more than just loose wheel nuts to this story.

Back around the 12th on a day off from work I noticed a flat front right tire and discovered a wood screw in the tread of one of my 4 month old Michelin Energies, of course I was a bit gutted but I figured it would be repairable. When putting on the spare tire (which I have never used before) I discovered that while it had plenty of pressure and I knew the tread was fine, there is a huge crack on the sidewall I had not noticed before.

Obviously I was unhappy about driving on that and decided it would not be safe to travel at motorway speeds so I was fairly desperate to get the puncture fixed quickly and locally. So I took it to a local Kwik-fit, (yeah I know, not the greatest, but there is not much choice within a short driving distance from here without getting onto a motorway) sure they said, no problem, a repair would be £25, leave the tire with us for a couple of hours.

Knowing the amount of trouble that I had getting the Xantia's centre-less wheels balanced when I took those to National last year (3 tries to get it right) I asked almost as a throwaway question, "It's a centre-less rim, will you be able to balance that ?". "NOPE! Sorry, can't balance those, it needs a £600 adaptor for the machine and we only see one or two jobs a year that would need it". Great I thought. I tried another tire fitter and got much the same response, "our machine can't balance those, sorry".

He suggested why don't I try the local Citroen service agent, as if anyone can balance it, it would be them... why not indeed ? I hadn't even considered them for tire repairs, they're walking distance from home, (I could roll the wheel there with a stick if I really had to ) I've bought parts off them a few times, and I had my last MOT done by them with no hassles.

So I phoned them up and asked if I could drop the wheel into them, sure no problem, so I did so and left them just the wheel. The next day at work I got a call to say that they couldn't repair the puncture as it was "too close to the sidewall". Well, I'm not sure that I agree with that, it was neatly embedded in the outer most deep channel in a Michelin Energy (if you're familiar with its tread pattern) which is a good inch or more from the edge of the tread...I've had worse than that repaired before successfully, and the hole would have been quite small.

If it wasn't a center-less rim and anywhere could balance it, and my spare tire on the car didn't have a giant crack on the side I would have got it back and tried elsewhere for a repair, but I couldn't drive far on the dodgy spare to try to find someone else who might be able to balance it, so I reluctantly agreed for them to replace it which they did a day later, for a whopping £128. (Compared to around £107 for the original tire including balancing)

Ok, but at least it will balanced properly, right ? Err, no. As soon as I picked it up (after hours, so no mechanics around only office staff) I noticed that the invoice said nothing about a wheel balance, and I could not see any change in the balance weights - none removed, added or moved. Hmmm... surely they wouldn't just fit a new tire without balancing it, right ? Yep, that's exactly what they've done.

I gave them the benefit of the doubt and put the wheel back on the car a day or so later (couldn't do it any earlier due to weather and other commitments) and took it for a test drive - sure enough a bad vibration centred around 75mph clearly coming from the front right. So I phoned them the next day on Friday the 15th to say that the wheel was not balanced, spoke to a mechanic/tech who clearly did not want to be talking to me on the phone, booked in to leave the whole car with them on Monday 18th while I caught the train to work, albeit having to start work late.

In the middle of Monday afternoon I get a phone call to say that they can't balance the wheel because there is a "problem with their wheel balance machine" and that they're "getting someone out to look at the machine but they don't know when it will be fixed by". In the mean time they said they've "swapped the front wheels over which should help a bit". Yeah right, like that will help.

So I picked the car up that night - again after hours when there are only office staff still there. Here's where everything started to go wrong. The first thing I noticed is that they'd left my car in the cark park with the suspension set to minimum height. What for ? Not a problem for me as I noticed it and lifted it up before I drove off, but what exactly did they think they were playing at ? A non-technical driver would have driven off down the road bouncing dangerously along and possibly popped a strut top through the bonnet...

When I got home I checked my locking wheel nut box - which I'd left on the dashboard for them, I then discovered that they have lost the black plastic stalk and plastic cup that is used to pull off the locking wheel nut cups. Also the cups are missing on the front wheel nuts themselves. Meanwhile the locking nut caps are still on the rear wheels but I have no way to remove them if I needed to on the side of the road!

Maybe not a major issue but it left a sour taste in my mouth. After being promised that they would phone me as soon as the wheel balance machine was "fixed" I hear nothing for 8 days and finally phoned them back yesterday, this time I was told that they can't balance the wheel on their machine as it "needs a special adaptor" (which is probably true) which they have ordered but they don't know how long it will take to arrive. In other words the first claim that the machine was broken was a lie, they just didn't have the necessary adaptor.

Then to top it off tonight I discovered the hard way that they'd left ALL the wheel nuts on the front wheels very loose. It's only because I drive the car so little (I catch a train to work) and not very often on the motorway that they have only just now worked themselves loose enough to make a clicking noise while cornering. As far as I'm concerned leaving all the wheel nuts loose is gross negligence and a serious safety concern, I can't let that one slide without making some sort of complaint, especially given the shoddy service that lead up to it.

I'm now in a situation where 10 days after I've paid them £128 to replace a tire that should have been repairable they've lost my locking wheel nut cap extractor and front caps, left my wheel nuts dangerously loose, and I still have no idea when they might be able to finish the job and balance the wheel, or indeed whether they have any intention of ordering a potentially expensive adaptor for their machine. I have a feeling I could be ringing them every few days and still not have a resolution a week or more from now.

What should I do ?

I'm trying not to burn my bridges with them as they have given good service before including my MOT and various Citroen parts, the next nearest Citroen agent is some distance away, and the problem is even if I demanded a refund for the cost of a wheel balance, where exactly would I take it to get it done ? National took 3 attempts to balance the wheels correctly last time, and they are a 20 mile round trip away which means a half day off work. Many other places won't touch these rims with a barge pole or will try but fail to get it right.

I just want this whole mess to be over so I can drive the car and get back to diagnosing its engine ailments!

Any suggestions...

[myglaren]

If they are authorised dealers, write to them detailing the experience and ask what they intend to do in recompense and send a copy to the head office, Citroen UK.

Very, very shoddy work indeed.

[Lighty]

I think you should write all this down (just as you have done on here) and present it to the dealer principal. Nothing focuses the mind like a letter, ask them for all issues to be sorted by the end of this week or you will passs a copy of the letter to trading standards, and Citroen UK. This kind of service is disgraceful, and how they could take o tthe job and not be able to balance the wheels beggars belief.
Even as a small independent, I shelled out for the wheel adapter, I also had to buy one for my changer, as it is a centre mount type, so £1200. How can you be a specialist without it.

[Gibbo2286]

Pretty well any garage or tyre fitting company nowadays will have a note on their invoice saying 'Check tightness of wheel nuts after thirty miles' or words to that effect the reason being that wheels and particularly alloy wheels can settle after fitting, did you read your invoice?

As for where to get proper service for wheel balancing and tyre fitting maybe consult the tyre manufactuer's website for your local approved agent.

e.g. http://www.michelin.co.uk/about/michelin-in-the-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mandrake]

If they are authorised dealers, write to them detailing the experience and ask what they intend to do in recompense and send a copy to the head office, Citroen UK.

Very, very shoddy work indeed.

Yes they are authorised Citroen (and Kia) service agents. I think I'm going to have to phone the workshop manager tomorrow to complain and give him a last chance to put things right, if not given that they are official service agents a complaint to the head office might be necessary. Trouble is I'm not someone that likes making these type of phone calls, nor am I good at it.

The thing that annoys me is if they'd just told me up front that they don't have the right adaptor for their machine I would have been a bit more understanding - if they really wanted to offer good service they could have phoned around other tire shops in the area and found one that would do it on their behalf, but instead they decided to fob me off with an unbalanced tire the first time and an excuse about their machine being broken the second time...

[Mandrake]

Pretty well any garage or tyre fitting company nowadays will have a note on their invoice saying 'Check tightness of wheel nuts after thirty miles' or words to that effect the reason being that wheels and particularly alloy wheels can settle after fitting, did you read your invoice?

You can't be serious can you ? It's my fault now ?

These wheel nuts did not "settle", they just weren't done up, plain and simple, and I'd done less than 20 miles by the time they were dangerously loose, probably only 10 miles at motorway speed.

I have never in over 20 years of motoring had wheels nuts come loose on me, steel or alloy rims, that I had done up properly with a normal wheel brace, and I have never heard of it happening to anyone I know. Most tire shops over tighten the wheel nuts with air impact drivers anyway, you can't get those loose even if you want to... The only time I've had wheel nuts work loose on me before is once when I'd forgotten to tighten them...and it became apparent within a few miles of driving, same as it did here.

No, a disclaimer like that is just arse covering in case they forget to tighten them properly. Wheel nuts don't come loose by themselves if they're properly tight to begin with. And no, there was nothing like that on their invoice, nor have I ever seen such a disclaimer on any tire invoice in the past.

As for where to get proper service for wheel balancing and tyre fitting maybe consult the tyre manufactuer's website for your local approved agent.

e.g. http://www.michelin.co.uk/about/michelin-in-the-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great, but is that of any help when it comes to balancing center-less rims ? I suspect not.

[myglaren]

I fully agree about the wheel nuts. On only one occasion have mine come loose* in nearly fifty years of driving and it was my own fault for not checking them properly after having had a wheel off.
There is no need to gobble down three weetabix before tightening them either.

* in the middle of the Tyne Tunnel, embarrassingly enough

[civvie]

Mandrake,
Look on the website link below, it shows a gauge with the allowable area that you can repair a tyre. Print it out and place on the tyre. I have used this to argue the toss with a repairer who was trying to get me to purchase a new tyre. Bit too late for you now but maybe for the next puncture.

I usually get my tyres from Black circles and their list of fitters say if they can do centre less wheels or not.

http://www.etyres.co.uk/repairable-area-gauge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good luck mate

[Ben82]

Simon,

Have you considered the mobile tyre fitters? Not used them for Citroen (as in the UK had a Nissan), but I had good experience with Event Mobile Tyres back when I was in the UK.. They do the balancing when replacing the tyres (at your home/work etc). Might be worthwhile asking them if they can do balancing only. You can keep an eye on them when they do it too!

^ etyres is another one that is a possibility for asking the question.

[Hell Razor5543]

Hello Simon,

I agree with the others in that you should clearly write up what has happened (as you have here), and then send a copy to both the dealership and to Citroen UK. Don't make any demands, but express surprised concern that the work done this time has not been safe or satisfactory, as (in your experience) the dealership has in the past provided exemplary service. Detail the problems, but don't point out the consequences (like a wheel coming off at motorway speeds), as this comes across as condecending.

Companies nowadays are getting used to complaints saying "sort it out and give me some money back". Praising their normal level of work gets noticed (even if it is in a complaint), and it is likely that they would want to retain you as a customer (and to sort out the issue properly). If you can, send the letters via registered post.

James

[addo]

A little light reading suggests strongly that BS AU 159f is being mis-quoted to assist profits. I haven't felt generous enough to buy a copy, but everyone in the trade bandies about the details for "minor repairs" as though it's where the document starts and stops.

I'll continue to repair my own punctures.

[lexi]

I would really have to go into the place and drive the car into the workshsop. Leave the nuts as you found them. Haul the manager or whoever has the biggest desk down onto the floor and get him to check the nuts. Then get the invoice out, demand to see workshop cards regarding who removed the wheels and lowered the jacks back down onto them.

See what transpires from that . You are looking for a full refund. If you do not get a squirm of satisfaction then ask for the name of their PL ins co that you may write to them informing them of the risk that they take insuring such an outfit...........nobody likes ins officers sneaking around. Trading standards and their head office will also be notified. Pipe in with the other insane things that happened to your car while in their care.

See where it goes and the reaction it gets. You are only pitching a ball . You still have all the other options.
It's what I would do and prefer face to face first.

The unfortunate thing is that you can prove nothing. Those Franchised dealerships have much worker protection and I bet the Managers arms are tied. My mate has his own Independant garage. If it happened in there you would have a better chance...........he would kick their arses literally and be fearfull enough to woo you with many sweeteners. You just cannot have trouble like that when you pay all the problems and claims with your own independant dough.

It does sound like you have had a dope smokin pi$$ wizard working on your car.

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Personally I wouldn't bother taking any of this up with the obvious idiots at the garage I would direct my complaint straight to their head office, explainning that you are contacting the head office because their staff are incapeable of releaseing your vechicle back to you in safe road worthy condition. I would also inform the head office that you have reported the issue of loose wheel nuts to Trading standards as it is extreemly dangerous to you and your passengers to have loose wheelnuts on your vechicle for which there is no practical excuse or defence.

My experiences with Citroen UK have been very good indeed I had a small issue that my car was registered when first registered as an LX Model and Isurance companies insisted it was an LX when in fact it is an SX Model, Citroen UK identified the mistake and corrected it for me in other words the person first registering the car from New The salesman doing the paperwork got it wrong.

[Gibbo2286]

Pretty well any garage or tyre fitting company nowadays will have a note on their invoice saying 'Check tightness of wheel nuts after thirty miles' or words to that effect the reason being that wheels and particularly alloy wheels can settle after fitting, did you read your invoice?

You can't be serious can you ? It's my fault now ?

These wheel nuts did not "settle", they just weren't done up, plain and simple, and I'd done less than 20 miles by the time they were dangerously loose, probably only 10 miles at motorway speed.

I have never in over 20 years of motoring had wheels nuts come loose on me, steel or alloy rims, that I had done up properly with a normal wheel brace, and I have never heard of it happening to anyone I know. Most tire shops over tighten the wheel nuts with air impact drivers anyway, you can't get those loose even if you want to... The only time I've had wheel nuts work loose on me before is once when I'd forgotten to tighten them...and it became apparent within a few miles of driving, same as it did here.

No, a disclaimer like that is just arse covering in case they forget to tighten them properly. Wheel nuts don't come loose by themselves if they're properly tight to begin with. And no, there was nothing like that on their invoice, nor have I ever seen such a disclaimer on any tire invoice in the past.

As for where to get proper service for wheel balancing and tyre fitting maybe consult the tyre manufactuer's website for your local approved agent.

e.g. http://www.michelin.co.uk/about/michelin-in-the-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great, but is that of any help when it comes to balancing center-less rims ? I suspect not.

No need to bite, I was just pointing out that the "arse covering" as you call it would be a likely response to your complaint, as for the 'Wheels never come loose' bit, ask yourself why the need for the arse covering on the invoice. By the way if you've never seen it you haven't been looking hard enough.

However I'm only sixty three years on the spanners so what do I know?

[Mandrake]

Sorry for sounding like I was biting, but I've been mucked around and fobbed off so much in the last two weeks by what started as a simple puncture repair and ended in nearly loosing a wheel on the motorway, that my patience over the matter is very thin. I can guarantee that if I'd checked the wheel nuts when I first got the car back they would have already been loose. I'll bet anything the wheel nuts were spun on by hand with a brace with the wheel in the air and they then forgot to do the final tighten once the car was on the ground. I've done it once myself so I know how easy it is to do it if you aren't methodical in checking your own work.

This is not a case of wheel bolts inexplicably working themselves loose. One bolt maybe, all eight bolts, no way. Simple negligence.