Hi Folks

[electrokid]

Just a quick intro

I'm thinking about the possibility of the next car being a C5 estate - probably around 2005 vintage so I'll be keeping an eye here on what goes wrong with them - and what goes right - generally getting to know them hopefully to apply a little wisdom to the purchase and ownership.

I'm a retired electronics engineer but I still have a reasonably well equipped lab at home. My Granada is my 6th one and the BX is my 3rd. I've been a reasonably active member of BXClub for a while and I'm also a member of the Granada Drivers Guild. Other forums - vinylengine, QuadraphonicQuad where I occasionally visit and I've just joined PicBasic.

[citronut]

hi Brian and welcome over here

look at the link below

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =7&t=43290" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CitroJim]

Welcome Brian Good to see you over this side of the fence...

Don't get a C5, go for a Xantia

[oneday]

nothing wrong with a c5 welcome brian

[blackbeard]

Hi Brian. If you go for a C5 you will eventually need all your electrical experience. There is a wire and sensor attached to just about everything - there are even sensors to check that sensors are working.

I have had a petrol automatic C5 for 3 years. Mechanically they are straightforward enough, but electrically they are a potential financial time bomb. Had I not had some basic understanding of the complexity (and workrounds) of these cars I would have been down at least double the £2000 I have already spent keeping my C5 running. Just one more failure, and I mean just one, and I will do the best Basil Faulty impression on that car ever seen this side of Manchester!

Seriously though, when it runs it runs well, but I would not risk buying another unless I knew the previous owner, knew its history, and it was very, very cheap.

[electrokid]

Hi again - and thanks for the welcomes

Thanks for the link Malcolm - I'm kinda thinking about the 2004 model - 6 speed gearbox I believe.

I do like enthusiasm Jim and I still remember much of your comprehensive description of the Activa suspension system even though I was more than halfway through my bottle of Kourtaki and I remain impressed by the way it works. I've never had any handling problems with the normal hydraulic suspension in the BX though, even though some folks 'on the other side' have spoken about understeer I've never ever had a BX 'let go' (that's one of the things the Granada does well in the wet ) so maybe I've calmed down at last - or maybe running on either Michelin or Vredestein tyres has something to do with it.

Thanks for your encouragement oneday

Just one more failure, and I mean just one, and I will do the best Basil Faulty impression on that car ever seen this side of Manchester!

The way the legal system in this country is going we'll soon need a licence to bash a car with a tree branch I did read somewhere that the C5 has 39 microprocessors dotted about - sounds to me like the sort of engineering where they've put a micro in where a nut and bolt would have sufficed. Good to hear that there are 'workarounds' though I do associate that word with "unnecessary sodding about". I do agree with you re service history - I have full SH on both my on-the-road cars - the BX folder weighs about 2Kg and the Granada's is in 4 box files but at least when something needs doing I can check when it was last tinkered with.

you will eventually need all your electrical experience

That's a bit ominous - it's about 50 years worth

[Citroenmad]

Welcome to the FCF

There is a break in C5 between 2004 when the faclifted C5II was launched, this had two new diesel engines (1.6HDi and 2.0HDi 138bhp - very good!). So im unsure if the 6 speed 2004 model you are talking about is a C5I or C5II and either 2.0HDi 138 or 2.2Hi 136. The 2.2 seems to have the most problems of the lot and so far I have avoided ownership of those, I found my 2.0HDi 138 superb, good economy and torque from a refined diesel engine.

Do check the dual mass flywheel is not making awful noises and the clutch is not slipping during peak torque. Every C5 diesel has a DMF and they are known to fail. I replaced mine at 25,000 miles, despite the clutch plate being like new (replaced anyway) but our other 2.0HDi 138 C5 is making horrible noises from the clutch now at 97,000 miles. Its not a cheap job.

Check all of the electrics, check for odd things like the indicators flashing a few times before they stop and the headlihts come on. This is a problem with the comms2000 unit.

If your going for anything other than the earlier 2.0HDi 110 8v (brilliant engine) then they all have diesel particulate filters. Not often a problem really but they dont like the car doing constant town use. They will eventually need the fluid topping up and the DPF filter replacing/cleaning, its expensive to replace it. This is why I have avoided the 2.2 as it was one of the first diesel engines to have a DPF and the 1.6 and 2.0HDi 138s are more refined in that area.

If its a 1.6 you stumble upon make sure it has been serviced every 10-12K miles at most and with the correct low sulphur oil - hard to tell I know. If left for long periods this can bring on turbo failure with this engine.

Suspension is a strong point on the C5s, it should ride softly-ish but not bouncy - if its bouncy the spheres are getting on a bit. Rattling will be front drops links - quite common.

Rear brake claipers can wedge out due to corrosion and wear the pads badly and odly, in extreme cases with C5s with small wheels the caliper meets the inside of the wheel rim. Also front calipers can have sticky handbrake arms, not always obvious to spot until a very noticeable wheel wobble develops and you cant see for smoke

Despite this I think of C5s as good and reliable cars which are stupidly good value for money too. When you look around at most more modern cars everything has a list as long as your arm of potential failures. We have had 5 C5s and I've covered just about ever common fault now, bar the DPF.

Find a good one which has been looked after and it should prove to be a reliable car. Our current two are 2002 C5 2.0HDi 110 SX hatch with 150K miles and a 2005 2.0HDi 138 VTR estate with 97K miles. Neither have been problematic to own for the last 3-4 years.

Good luck with your search

[electrokid]

Thanks for the comprehensive post - much appreciated Chris.

My local independent Citroën specialist has indeed recommended the 2.0HDi / 110bhp engine - whether there's a C5 with that engine and the 6sp gearbox I'm not sure - I'm not yet familiar with the different models. Thanks for the warning re the DMF - a friend of mine, who is the opposite of me with respect to cars in that he looks for a newer car when his current drive gets to 4 years old, had a Volvo with less than 30K on the clock which suffered from DMF failure and the repair cost him over £1700. I was sympathetic of course - probably mentioned that I could buy several BXs for that money

Indicators flashing when they shouldn't is, in my opinion, a very serious problem - I'll keep an eye out for that sort of symptom. As it happens I've recently designed LED driver circuitry for flashing indicators - might come in handy

I've had bouncy suspension on the BX - I figure that replacing the spheres is something to do as a matter of course if there are any doubts - not that expensive. Thanks for the heads-up re calipers etc - I've had to replace the fronts on the BX but the rears have not been touched in the 7 years of my ownership.

As you say - a lot of car for the money, and fortunately it's not an urgent requirement so I'll take my time and try to find one that has been cared for.

[Welshy_Pete]

Hello welcome to the french car forum.

[uhn113x]

... sounds to me like the sort of engineering where they've put a micro in where a nut and bolt would have sufficed.

That's because they are cheaper than nuts 'n' bolts and have eat-by dates; latter is essential to keep the factories running.

You can make a nut or bolt in a few minutes but you would need to buy an IC factory to make an IC.

I'll stick with non-electronic cars, despite I also have half a century of working with the subject!

[CitroJim]

I also have half a century of working with the subject!

I'm racking up nigh-on 40 years in the subject Mike and I still retain a slight distrust of in car electronics - says he with an XM and Xantia with electronic gearboxes - but in reality car electronics from the '90s is pretty well reliable by and large.

We should be thankful perhaps that car electronics doesn't use valves but then again if they did I'm sure we both would have no problems repairing them at all...

Imagine a quad or sextet of EL34s or KT66s firing the injectors or doing gear selection in an automatic gearbox. Hmmm.... Nice!

[electrokid]

Diolch yn fawr Pete

(My nearest living relatives are in Porthcawl and my mother was a Griffiths but the above and "nos da" is probably the limit of my Welsh)

That's because they are cheaper than nuts 'n' bolts

Actually that IS becoming true !

I'll stick with non-electronic cars, despite I also have half a century of working with the subject!

That's a sentiment I entirely agree with Mike - getting something that ticks all my other boxes as well - now that's the problem.

Imagine a quad or sextet of EL34s or KT66s firing the injectors or doing gear selection in an automatic gearbox. Hmmm.... Nice!

I do like that idea and I do have an unopened box of 6 EMI KT88s

Early automatic headlamp dipping on some US models actually relied on photomultiplier tubes

[CitroJim]

I do have an unopened box of 6 EMI KT88s :

You sir are a very rich man! I've watched some genuine NOS GEC ones go on ebay for positively eye-watering money

There is an (urban) legend that the more rugged version of the 6L6, the 5881, was developed for prop pitch control in B something or another bombers. How true that is I've never been able to substantiate..

[mds141]

Welcome to the enlightened forum Brian. As I've mentioned on BXClub 'XM Estate'. Only car you'll ever need.

[electrokid]

Thanks Mark XM is certainly capable of ticking the "younger" box - and size is about right too.

You sir are a very rich man! I've watched some genuine NOS GEC ones go on ebay for positively eye-watering money

Well that depends... I'd like to build 4 monoblocks stealing the best ideas from Williamson, Radford, and Morgan Jones in which case I'll have to buy another pair I also have "left over from the 1960s" 4 off Radiospares "de-luxe" 30W output transformers and 10 off Stentorian HF1012 speakers all of which, like the NOS KT88s are capable of selling for well into 3 figures on eBay Currently though my home entertainment seems to be going backwards - last week the livingroom TV fizzed and died with that wonderfull fried telly smell we all know and love, and a line output amp on one of the Technics power amps went low gain leaving rear / right channel somewhat down in volume - and I don't have time to look at it at the mo - when the nasty chemicals arrive this afternoon I shall be moving furniture and dealing with a small outbreak of carpet moth... Grrrr such is life