Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

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atr
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Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by atr »

Hi
There is a new issue in the last few days. when I stand, at a traffic light, for example and I want to begin to move, sometimes there is a slight delay and then a"kick" and the vehicle begins to move. what I've noticed is that it appears after a period of time that maybe the transmission fluid is warming up, it's only my assumption. Is there anything that can be done beside rebuilding/replacing the transmission?
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by SaabC5 »

How old is the tranny fluid, what colour is it and does it smell burnt? Has a fluid change ever been done?
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by spider »

I'd ask the same too, my initial thought was low fluid level although it may be well low if its doing that and not creeping.
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by Mandrake »

An even more important question is what mileage has the car done ? The AL4 is the small brother of the 4HP20 and uses the same unique Esso/Mobil LT71141 fluid, and has a similar reputation for dying with little warning past 100,000 miles, especially if it has never had any oil changes in its "sealed for life" lifetime...

Having just been through some very worrying problems with my 4HP20 I would be immediately checking the oil level to make sure its not too low, you should be able to find the procedure in the AL4 training manual downloadable from here:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would also do at least one oil change to see what the condition of the oil is that comes out. Each change only drains approximately half the total oil so you can never really "change" the oil, only dilute it by 50% with each change, so if the oil is very dirty it can take as much as 3 - 4 changes to get it respectably clean.

I was having problems with groaning/shuddering and general misbehaviour (including snatching like you describe) from my 4HP20, and 4 oil changes over a 6 week period fixed it... you can see the state of the drained oil and discussion about it here:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... &start=300" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the oil that comes out of yours looks anything like test tube 1 in the above thread then that could be your problem. Despite being "sealed for life" these gearboxes do NOT like running on old dirty oil...and probably only do half the mileage they'd be capable of if they had regular oil changes.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by atr »

Hi guys
Thanx for your replies. I'll check what was offerd .
The vehicle did so far 235K km. as per the maintenance log - the fluid was replaced once at 73K km. it was done when it was owned by the previous owner. as Mandrake mentined- since it supposed to be a "lifetime" isn't that odd that the fluid was replaced at such an early period?
looking forward for your comments.
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by andy5 »

Probably naive or patronising question, as I have no idea what the gearbox looks like: when changing the oil, could you get a tube in and use a hand syphon pump to get out more than half the old stuff, or is it dispersed around the system?
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Post by addo »

A goodly amount of it, is in the torque converter. Hard to remove whilst in-situ.

The tenacity of modern gear oils like this type means that they also "coat" insides of components quite well with a film of worn materials and oil, this is not readily removed and new oil only disturbs a small portion of it - yet my belief is that the film can affect shuttle valve bleed rates and thus accumulator pressure, or when it really build up, the ability to regulate fluid flow more generally, with great accuracy.

I think an ultrasonic cleaning of the valve (solenoid) body would release a lot of superfine junk. However this requires specialised documentation for setting some of the removable stops once dismantled.
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by atr »

Could this procedure (removal of the fluid) carried out with the vehicle on its wheels or one must use a lift for it?
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Post by addo »

On the ground is OK.
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by Mandrake »

If the car has done 235,000Km (~147,000 miles) then you've done well, unfortunately at that mileage an AL4 is probably on "borrowed time", and the oil change that was done at 73,000Km may have been all that has helped it to last as long as it did.

No drive from idle then a sudden kick when you put your foot down could be a lack of oil pressure - the oil pump spins faster when you rev the engine and may generate more oil pressure at higher rpm if the pressure is too low at idle due to a blocked filter or other problems.

On an AL4 you can measure the hydraulic rail pressure in real time with a Lexia so if you know anyone nearby who could put a Lexia on the car while you go for a test drive it would probably be prudent - in "parameters measurement" you will find "selected pressure" (the pressure the ECU is asking for) and pressure which is actual measured pressure. This is typically around 2.5 bars at idle. If actual pressure is significantly below selected pressure at idle or when you are noticing the problem you could have a very serious problem.

For an example of what can go wrong have a look at the following thread:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=41417" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This was an AL4 which only had drive for about 30 seconds then lost all drive until the engine was turned off for a few minutes. I visited the owner and put my Lexia on it and found that the rail pressure was dropping from 2.5 bars down to below 0.5 bars over about a 30 second period - below about 1 bar the clutches would let go effectively leaving you in neutral. To my knowledge that car has not be repaired to date.

If you act now and check the oil pressure and also check the condition of the oil (and do a few oil changes over a few weeks) then you may be able to rescue it and get a decent amount of further mileage out of it, but if you ignore the warning signs when the gearbox has done 147,000 miles and do nothing there is a significant risk that the gearbox could fail in the next few thousand miles.

Not trying to be alarmist, but prevention is better than cure with automatic gearboxes, especially high mileage ones. Once they go splat its usually too late to do anything to repair them economically.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

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atr
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by atr »

Mandrake - I didn't consider your reply as "alarmist" and the reason that I've posted the issue is because I'm aware that's somthing wrong. thanks for your detaild and enlightening explanation, I really can use any help. as per connecting a Lexia - the funny thing is that I have a chinese clone that I bought about two years ago but unfortunately I've lost the software CD and so I'm trying to achieve it from the net (I've turned to the supplier in China but they answered that they can't send that as a file, strange since I'm sure that they could provide me a link, but that's a different story). btw - I hope that I'm not as clumsy as it might sound.
Anyhow - after I'll have the Lexia installed on my laptop I'll make the checks and I hope for the better.
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by Mandrake »

Most Chinese clone Lexia's (especially any one bought 2 years ago) can only run Diagbox versions up to 5.29, and some are known to have problems communicating with some ECU's in some C5's... however it may still do the trick for you and is worth a shot if you already have the hardware.

I'll PM you a possible download link for Diagbox 5.29 later tonight when I've had a chance to dig it out.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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1978 CX 2400
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Re: Xantia with AL4 - "kicks"

Post by Mandrake »

I was going to PM you a word document with download links however I remembered that we can't attach files to PM's and I don't want to attach it to the thread as the links get updated from time to time and will become stale...

Have a look at my post on this thread referring to the auto-professionals website:

frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41720&start=59

If you follow that you should be able to get your hands on Diagbox 5.02 which should work with your interface, and optionally update it to 5.29. (Don't update it beyond 5.29 as it likely won't work on any version newer than 5.29, and you shouldn't need later versions for your car anyway)
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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