brake lights and indicators not working!! HELP

[redtoby]

Hi my name is Toby and i hope someone can help?

I was driving my 1994 Citroen xantia VSX 2.0 the other day to drop my kids off to school when i had to break sharply and this had the adverse effect of switching off the radio but it switched back on,however now the indicators and brake lights will not work and i have a battery light on constantly on the dash board when the car is being driven.
I could here from the fuse box a whirring sound coming from the indicator relay,i first just tried to change the relevant fuse and each time i did this it would spark and then not work!
After several tries it worked, today though it has stopped altogether so i bought a new indicator relay but this did not help and no amount of fuse changing will make it work.!!
PLEASE HELP. I NEED MY CAR AND NOT ANOTHER MASSIVE HEADACHE.
MANY THANKS

[Xantidote]

Hi, and welcome to the forum - sorry no-one's yet been along, but to my mind, you've raised a bit of an odd-ball problem

Think to start with, I'd be mainly bothered by the battery sign on the dashboard. If this isn't going out when engine is running, then there's no charge going to the battery, and you'll not get far.

Is the battery securely fixed in position, with all the leads securely attached? Funny that problem started after you braked hard. Presumably engine starts OK, suggesting battery leads must be working fairly well. Are the earthing connections to the inner nearside wing good?

With regard to the indicators/relay, were you blowing fuses - am wondering if there could be a short somewhere. Maybe you could narrow down the problem by pulling fuses 1 by 1?

This is just a quick response to your post. More information will give us more to go on. Be glad you've not got a modern car with lots of ecus/computers on board
(PS. where are you located?)

[spider]

I'd agree start by checking the main earth leads, from battery to gearbox and from battery to body. Earthing faults can cause all kinds of very strange issues as current backfeeds across other circuits.

[Xantidote]

Further thoughts - have you done any work on car recently which might have upset it, such as replacing a bulb, or checking another problem? Everything else working OK (eg. lights & wipers)? Problem is only with the brake lights and the indicators?

[Xantidote]

Thanks Spider - thought I was on my own

[Old-Guy]

In haste:
It sounds as though your emergency stop has caused a short somewhere in the wiring (blowing fuse) and pulled an earth loose too.

I would check (in order):
1. the battery is secure and no wires have been pulled loose from the battery terminals
2. that the main earth leads are secure to the earthing point, the battery and the engine/gearbox
3. check the cable harness between body shell and tailgate - pull back the rubber boot at each end in turn and and gently pull a bit of slack out of body/tailgate so that you can inspect the cables for damage (often the wire strands all break with no visible damage, just a floppy point in the cable).

If a fuse blows, it's pointless replacing it until the fault (almost always a short to earth) has been found and fixed. Fuses are there to protect the electrics from excess current caused by faults (otherwise the car would go up in flames!).

EDIT: we're just like buses - none for ages, then 3 at once

[Gibbo2286]

One other thing, have you changed any bulbs? A double filament bulb in a single filament hole or vice-versa may produce the symptoms you are experiencing

[redtoby]

a reply to all your fantastic advice i live in London and i have bot changed anything only bought the car in November.i still have to drive the car everyday so am having to put a new fuse and when i drive now and have found if i do not put too much pressured on the brake pedal everything is normal and then it will go.
I will try all the things you have suggested and will keep you all informed.
again many many thanks to you all

[redtoby]

Hi, and welcome to the forum - sorry no-one's yet been along, but to my mind, you've raised a bit of an odd-ball problem

Think to start with, I'd be mainly bothered by the battery sign on the dashboard. If this isn't going out when engine is running, then there's no charge going to the battery, and you'll not get far.

Is the battery securely fixed in position, with all the leads securely attached? Funny that problem started after you braked hard. Presumably engine starts OK, suggesting battery leads must be working fairly well. Are the earthing connections to the inner nearside wing good?

With regard to the indicators/relay, were you blowing fuses - am wondering if there could be a short somewhere. Maybe you could narrow down the problem by pulling fuses 1 by 1?

This is just a quick response to your post. More information will give us more to go on. Be glad you've not got a modern car with lots of ecus/computers on board
(PS. where are you located?)

everything still works but when fuse blows the radio goes off and then comes back on. why would taking out the fuses one by one aid me in any way???

[Xantidote]

Hi Toby,

why would taking out the fuses one by one aid me in any way???

I suggested this to try and pin down where the problem was. However, as I read it from your recent post, the problem seems to only be there when you brake firmly (or sharply, as in your first post), thereby narrowing things down. Which fuse is it you are replacing? From my Haynes, covering 1993-1995, I see Fuse 28 feeds the brakes circuit, rated at 15 amps. However, the handbook I have with my 1995 Xantia gives 25 amps. The actual rating may be dependent on what accessories is fitted with. Fuse 28 also links to the indicators, & other circuits.

Let us know if it's Fuse 28. If so, I think you may have a short in the brakes circuitry, in which case, I'd start at the brake pedal. The brake switch is on the brake pedal. Become a contortionist and grovel in the footwell, with a light/torch, to check that the wiring to the switch is not tangled up somewhere. If the problem only occurs when you brake hard, this suggests problem is only when the pedal is pressed down a long way, and maybe it's pulling at the connecting wires that connect to the switch.

Do the brake lights come on when you press the pedal lightly, without blowing the fuse??

Hope it's not too snowey where you are Good luck

[redtoby]

This does happen when I touch the pedal lightly however now the ignition is failing to start! Everything else works and I can hear a relay clicking and have identified where it is! Could this be why the ignition won't rotate ??? Can I just wrap the relay in foil and see if this is the broken part. I know this is an old fashioned test but is it worth a try and if so I will buy a new relay !!!! Many thanks for all your help

[redtoby]

i now have a major problem having checked the wiring,fiddled with the brake light switch searched here there and everywhere(and tried the bloody fuses) this is where i am now at.
THE BASTARD WONT START.!!!YEAH THATS RIGHT IT WONT EVEN TURN OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ignition comes on and everything works,windows,lights,wipers etc,but when i turn the key nothing??
I can hear however a relay clicking????
i am at the end i need my car and all your valiant advice and help has been very welcome indeed,but what now any ideas apart from the obvious .
any advice would be great.
again many thanks to all

[Xantidote]

I'm hoping someone else may chip in with their help here - really thought my idea of a problem with the brake switch wires would fix it

Referring to your last 2 posts, are you saying that the ignition key now no longer turns in the switch, to the starter position? Does it jam/lock up, which could be a problem with the key/mechanical bit of the switch, or could be a problem with the electrical part of the switch (which is screwed on to the back of the mechanical key part (hope I'm making myself clear).

To help us narrow down the problem:

Is the fuse still blowing all the time, and which one was it (IIRC, there should be tiny numbers on the fuse-box, to help with identifying the fuse number)

Which relay is it that's clicking? I assume it's one down by the driver's right knee. Be aware that the relative positions of the relays above the fuse box can vary from car to car (so I've read), and apart from the colour, and number of connector spades, I'd be removing it to see what then stops working, as a way of identifying it.

One of Old-Guy's suggestions was to check the wiring where it passes into the tail gate, as these wires are known to fracture/short over the longer term, because of the repeated flexing, and the fact that Citroen were a bit stingey with the length of the wiring harness. Checked? Still same problem if you raise the tailgate, which might move the wires around a little bit?

Picking up on Gibbo's suggestion, all the rear lamp bulbs are the correct ones in their correct locations, and are fitted correctly in their holders? Has been known for a wrong bulb to be fitted which gave problems, but haven't looked for the relevant thread on the forum.

Could still be bad earth somewhere

Wouldn't recomend you replace a relay or anything until you are confident that the problem's been properly identified

[redtoby]

when i turn the key there is nothing just the sound of the clicking relay down by my right ankle in the foot well at the base almost of the steering wheel to the right side.the relay is light green 12 v 25amp
I checked the wiring by the tail gate and all seems fine!!
The fuse was still blowing!!
I am lost as to what to check next.
thanks for all your efforts.

[Xantidote]

These electrical gremlins are elusive

You still haven't told us which fuse it is that's blowing. The fuse box by drivers right knee has a little white number against every fuse. What's the number?

The clicking you hear:- Is it from the light green relay close to the fuses by your right knee, or is it coming from the indicator relay which is hidden above a bit of black plastic at the other end of the fuse box from the light green relay? Operate indicators/hazards, and press fingers against each, as relying on sound alone can be confusing. Make sure you feel the clicks under your fingers

My car has a light green relay close alongside the fuses, to same specification as yours, but so far unable to find out what it does. With said relay removed, my car starts OK, and sidelights, headlights, horn, brake lights, indicators, hazards, front & rear wipers, sunroof, central locking, instruments all work.

You report car's not now starting. Are the headlights as bright as usual? Wondering if the battery charge is low, bearing in mind your first post said that the battery light was on.

EDIT: don't think this last bit relevant - There was a thread on the forum in last 2 years about some Xantias having a problem with the main feed cable in the wiring loom from the battery to the ignition switch. Unsure without searching as to how it manifested itself. Basically, this harness runs across the front of the car close to bottom of radiator, and can be affected by the wet getting in and causing corrosion

PS. Tow bar fitted?

Keep going