C5 Hdi Very Poor Starting

[galonki]

Hi, happy new year to all! My C5 just can't resist not giving me a present at least once a year and it's normally just around the holiday season when spending is already high, anyway;
Following last years, flywheel+clutch replacement all has been ok.
My C5 2.0 Hdi 110 has never been as easy to start as an AUDI common rail or AUDI PD (previous thread on this by me) and 2 years ago i had to invest in a new battery due to being unable to get started in the mornings.
So now 2 years later and according to the distributor *out of warranty, + usual yearly cold mornings meant my battery has gone flat again and unable to get the car started.
So i bit the bullet and invested this time in Bosch 096 77ah 780 CCA - best i could get and comes with a 5 year warranty.
However even with the brand new battery it still is difficult to start the FIRST TIME after standing still, the longer stood still i.e. engine not running, the more cranking it needs to get going again.
In the mornings this is most notable, when it takes 7-8 seconds of cranking to get started; now i know from the discussions held in the previous thread 2 years ago that Hdi engines work differently to those of Audi,VW and should not be compared; but surely 7seconds of cranking to get the engine started is not normal.
To be clear, once running following starts are easy as it should be. It's just the first start which takes a while for engine/fuel compression to build up or other reasons im guessing.

My inital thought was Glow plugs probably faulty,but from reading other posts and looking at the glowplugs operations table which shows them operational only for very cold weather such as -18, however at 0 celsius it states 0.5 seconds so almost nothing, and my glow plug light never stays on for more than a blink.

Which then leaves with everything else:

Engine Compression
Fuel Pressure: PUMP, INJECTORS.
Sensors: camshaft, MAF(recently replaced- fixed lack of power and EML).
Anything else?

What are your opinions on what is most likely to be?

More info: mileage around 160,000, fuel system:Siemens

Look forward to hearing back.

[Lighty]

Siemens fuel system is something that makes the job worse. I suspect that you have an injector that is leaking pressure away from the fuel rail. The glow plugs are not really required until the temp goes below freezing, so could be an issue at the moment, but sounds like you have had the issue a while.
You will need to do a diesel leak off test, or get one done. One faulty injector can stop the car from starting as it should. A perfect Citroen hdi will start 1st turn.
Trouble is , the Siemens injectors are 3 times the cost of Bosch ones.

[Peter.N.]

I have two 2.0 Hdi's and they both start instantly, or at least they did, the C5 has become difficult to start lately but its worse when hot so I'm pretty sure its the pump, I think mine is Bosch - at least I hope it is because I bought a bosch pump for it!

Peter

[jgra1]

my Hdi 110 is about 7 turns of engine (as against seconds) and that's in this current weather.. normally more like 5 turns..

John

[galonki]

Well firstly i must admit i am making my claim for the fuel system to be Siemens since when i changed the fuel filter it was the Siemens type. It would be odd if the fuel filter type was Siemens but pump injectors etc was Bosch or am i wrong?

In response to Lighty's post, is the diesel leak off test you are reffering to mechanical based or obd computer based? What would be actually tested within the test, as a rough understanding? I imagine from your post that you believe the most likely culprit to be the injectors?
Finally, if for example one injector was identified to be likely faulty, could i just replace one for a working used bought of the net, or would i need to buy all 4?

In response to Peter's post, it sounds like we both have very different faults as you have trouble when engine hot, after running, whereas for myself it is just the First start which is problematic. After the engine has run even for a short while e.g. 30seconds it will start easily following a stop. Obviously if left for say several hours enough for engine to cool down, or fuel pressure to decrease whatever it will be difficult start again.

Finally, in response to John's post i can't tell you how many turns it takes as haven't counted (will do in next couple of days) but it is many i would imagine bearing in mind it takes around 7 seconds of cranking for it to fire, once it fires it starts first time.

Starting to sound expensive and then i have had an idea are these Injector Cleaning Fluids which you put in the tank any good? Best one according to price is BG244 Diesel Cleaner.

[Lighty]

The leak off test is done physically with 4 little bottles and 4 pipes, I found this little vid for you, gives you some idea



You can indeed just change the faulty unit.

[Northern_Mike]

Siemens fuel system is something that makes the job worse. I suspect that you have an injector that is leaking pressure away from the fuel rail. .

The Berlingo is Siemens, the C5 is Bosch. They've both got worse in the cold weather.

They're both fine above about 5c...

Savoy Malc reckons this is the starter motor, and has offered to fit one for me as a test to see if it solves the issue..

[galonki]

Lighty, thanks for the video, will do more reading on this test and maybe if i think i can handle it attempt it at some point in the future.

Northern Mike, let us know if changing the starter motor will make starting easy? Would be really interesting.
And are you certain the C5 only comes with the Bosch injectors? Why is there 2 types of fuel filters then for siemens and for bosch? I had to purchase Siemens type, after Bosch filter did not fit.

[Northern_Mike]

Weather warmer today, both cars started first turn of the key. Very strange indeed!

I didn't mean that the C5 only comes with Bosch. I know Berlingos came with both Bosch and Siemens, I'm presuming C5s do too.. it seems that they fitted whatever was nearest to the engine as they were building it on most of the HDi cars..

[galonki]

OK so today after not driving the car for 2 days, attempted to start and after cranking for around 7seconds and non-start stopped and waited 5secs then cranked again for 5secs and stopped after noticing a funny smell of BURNING! - popped the hood and guess what SMOKE ! - not to much, a little but enough to freak me out. anyways it sooned disappeared after 5 seconds or so and 1min later - i attempted to start the car again. Result - the car now just makes a loud CLICK noise and nothing else happends.

I believe the starter motor has had it - and perhaps that explains the difficulty in starting as i did have very slow cranking when it still worked. Do you guys think this explanation is plaussible?

So next on the to do list is replace the starter motor, Haynes manual out but no pictures and not very detailed, does anyone know where the motor is actually located? It's not like its a small part but i have been looking from the top of the engine bay for 30mins and found nothing! It would be really helpfull if someone could point me in the right direction.

In addition, how hard is it to replace? Is it a matter of a couple of bolts off, and swap or it is more complex than that?

Finaly, i need to obviously find the part number of existing motor, do i need to get EXACT 1to1 replacement? Because from searching around online it appears there are different manufacturer ones available?

Cheers for any tips.

[galonki]

Just to update everyone who contributed to this page or found it useful, or will find in the future; starter motor replaced and engine starts in 1 turn of a key like an AUDI and how all cars should

Thanks to all who contributed.

[KevMayer]

My 2.2 HDI has a Siemens fuel filter and Bosch pump, Bosch injectors and Bosch ECU.

Everything seems to be Bosch except the fuel filter.

[galonki]

ITs normal asi have exactly the same as your on a 2.0 Hdi. I should correct myself to what was previously an assumption.
Assumption = Siemens fuel filter = siemens fuel system
Fact = Siemens fuel filter + Bosch Pump + Bosch Injectors

Hope that re-assures you.

[hirameuser]

Just thought I would add to this. Bought a battery last week as the c5 was getting hard to start in this cold weather, the c5 was still slow to start and was thinking the battery must have been a bit too cheap, then today as I just going up to the lakes for 5 days it would not start at all, motor turned slowly so scrounged a jump start still no luck then it stopped turning at all. Finaly took the starter off for a check and opened up the motor to check the brushes, they had all 4 disintegrated, the commutator would at least need a skim as it was shorted across in many places. as the shops were closed tried a small breaker and came up lucky £20.00 and starting on the button now. Second attempt to go to the lakes in the morning.

Starter was just over 2 years old and a Valeo. 2L HDI It is located radiator side of the engine right side a bit lower than the fuel filter, you need I think it was 8mm allen key to remove 3 bolts that come out under the air filter. 13mm socket for the big cable 8mm socket for the small cable and dont forget to disconnect the battery. Its a bit of a fiddle a 1/4 in socket set helps.

Might be worth putting this as a common fault ?

Cheers

Phil D