C5 - clicking with revs [solved]

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
User avatar
Ben82
Posts: 1086
Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 07:47
Location: Sköllersta/Örebro, Sweden
My Cars: C5 V6 2004
x 7

C5 - clicking with revs [solved]

Post by Ben82 »

Solved here.

Hi all again,

Not sure if this is a "Freezing weather" issue, but wondering if it should be a concern, has been happening for about a week and a half, and I don't think the weather has gotten above -10C.

I get a clicking sound, not consistently, and it seems to be related to revs, however sometimes, the amount of "clicking" stays constant, e.g when changing gear. There seems to be a dead zone around 1800 revs too, not sure whether this is down to it being at a speed where it masks the sound.

Even when idling it comes and goes, so makes it a bit difficult to check out on my own.

Have uploaded a video of it too.

The service light bit seems to be it's regular "I'm too cold!", and goes away if I start it again after it has had enough time to warm up (i.e. don't think its related, as the clicking happens without the service light being on too).

Thanks again

Ben
Last edited by Ben82 on 04 May 2013, 14:53, edited 1 time in total.
2004 Citroen C5 3L V6 Auto
Brit living in Sweden with an imported from Germany French Car!
horsedentist
Posts: 166
Joined: 12 Nov 2012, 16:16
Location:
My Cars:

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by horsedentist »

Dual mass Crankshaft pulley wearing out?
User avatar
Ben82
Posts: 1086
Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 07:47
Location: Sköllersta/Örebro, Sweden
My Cars: C5 V6 2004
x 7

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Ben82 »

Maybe a silly question.. but would mine have a dual mass one with it being an automatic?
2004 Citroen C5 3L V6 Auto
Brit living in Sweden with an imported from Germany French Car!
horsedentist
Posts: 166
Joined: 12 Nov 2012, 16:16
Location:
My Cars:

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by horsedentist »

The crank shaft pulley drives the auxiliary serpentine belt it is in 2 parts, bonded together with rubber acts a vibration damper. It has an outer metal frame with a compound insert and 3 pins going through slots in the outer frame.So the inner can flex and absorb some of the vibration from the engine they start to break up over time and the clicking is the pins moving inside the frame eventually develops into a tapping sound easy job but difficult to undo and torque back up on an auto.Crank shaft bolt MUST be bonded back in place with locktite.
User avatar
Ben82
Posts: 1086
Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 07:47
Location: Sköllersta/Örebro, Sweden
My Cars: C5 V6 2004
x 7

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Ben82 »

Hmm, been looking around (i.e. this from eurocarparts ), would the crankshaft pulley be changed when the Cambelt was done a few months ago?
This is the kit they would have used, isn't it the one in the middle?
2004 Citroen C5 3L V6 Auto
Brit living in Sweden with an imported from Germany French Car!
User avatar
Old-Guy
Posts: 1798
Joined: 11 Sep 2008, 12:08
Location: Gloucestershire
My Cars: 2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
x 17

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Old-Guy »

Ben82 wrote:Hmm, been looking around (i.e. this from eurocarparts ), would the crankshaft pulley be changed when the Cambelt was done a few months ago?
This is the kit they would have used, isn't it the one in the middle?
No - impending failure of the dual-mass pulley wouldn't be obvious or necessarily detectable even if you had told them about the 'clicking'. This pulley drives the auxiliary belt that drives the alternator, A/C compressor, hydraulic pump and water pump.)
and
No - they're all cam-belt idlers; have a look down between engine and O/S inner wing and you'll see the pulley as the bottom front 'wheel' that the auxiliary belt runs over.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
User avatar
Ben82
Posts: 1086
Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 07:47
Location: Sköllersta/Örebro, Sweden
My Cars: C5 V6 2004
x 7

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Ben82 »

Hmm.. will have to take a look tomorrow when it is lighter again, looking around the net for a replacement, it seems this part is very hard to find? Seems like my usual round of suppliers for checking do not stock the part at all for my car (most don't even list that it even exists!), seems like the cheapest would be ebay from France for about 85EUR.

Which will mean I won't be able to get it sorted for Sunday when I have a 100km drive to the airport. Will probably have to take it to the garage in the morning, see if they can help narrow it down, if it is the pulley, i'm not sure they'll be able to get the part either (since I've already check with their usual supplier for a replacement).

Thanks both for your help.
2004 Citroen C5 3L V6 Auto
Brit living in Sweden with an imported from Germany French Car!
JohnD
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2632
Joined: 14 Mar 2001, 23:41
Location: Epsom, Surrey
My Cars: 2010 Citroen C5-X7 tourer
1998 Citroen Saxo 1.5D
2018 Citroen C4-B7
1998 Peugeot 306. 1.9D
2011 Citroen C1
x 72
Contact:

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by JohnD »

This is a crankshaft pulley which is on ebay:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-C5-2- ... 19cc170ee8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Going on the quoted price, it's probably not the best of qualities. Cheapo ones have been known to fail fairly quickly.
2010 C5 X7 VTR+Nav 160
1998 1.5 Saxo
1998 Pug 306 1.9D
2018 C4 B7 VTR+
2011 Citroen C1
User avatar
Ben82
Posts: 1086
Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 07:47
Location: Sköllersta/Örebro, Sweden
My Cars: C5 V6 2004
x 7

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Ben82 »

Hi John,

Yeah, I can find loads for the other (non-3L) C5s, my one appears to need part no. 0515.S2, i.e this one, which there doesn't seem to be many places selling them.

Cheers

Ben
2004 Citroen C5 3L V6 Auto
Brit living in Sweden with an imported from Germany French Car!
horsedentist
Posts: 166
Joined: 12 Nov 2012, 16:16
Location:
My Cars:

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by horsedentist »

Try dropping these guys an email see if they have one they seem to have many different types.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-C3-PL ... 0512617%26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JohnD
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 2632
Joined: 14 Mar 2001, 23:41
Location: Epsom, Surrey
My Cars: 2010 Citroen C5-X7 tourer
1998 Citroen Saxo 1.5D
2018 Citroen C4-B7
1998 Peugeot 306. 1.9D
2011 Citroen C1
x 72
Contact:

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by JohnD »

Ben82 wrote:Hi John,
my one appears to need part no. 0515.S2,
Sorry! I hadn't noticed it was a 3ltr.
2010 C5 X7 VTR+Nav 160
1998 1.5 Saxo
1998 Pug 306 1.9D
2018 C4 B7 VTR+
2011 Citroen C1
User avatar
Ben82
Posts: 1086
Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 07:47
Location: Sköllersta/Örebro, Sweden
My Cars: C5 V6 2004
x 7

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Ben82 »

Now I consider my oil pressure sensor issue resolved, I want to try to get back to diagnosing/solving this one. Combining extra information from the other thread here's a brief summary:

1) The ticking has got neither better nor worse since I started this thread. (it just annoys me!)
2) Local Garage says I can ignore it "just turn the radio up"
3) Garage 60km away (which the car got towed to for the oil pressure issue), recommends doing an engine flush thinking there are carbon deposits in the engine causing it (along with the issue with the Oil pressure switch).
4) You guys think it's probably the crankshaft pulley.
5) It's bloody hard to diagnose on my own since it can stop from the time of hearing it in the cabin, to getting the bonnet up, by which time there's plenty more noises going on to distinguish, get back in the car and it's stopped.

Since it annoys me I'm going to ignore the advice to ignore it. #3 I'm feeling is getting less and less likely (other half told me yesterday they were quite pushy with her at the time to go for it, but she told them they'd have to convince me, so I'm guessing once I was there to collect the car, it was pointless to try to sell it to me, but had to explain it I guess to retain credibility in their "recommendation"). I'm also skeptical about it being to do with the oil, due to the consistency of the ticking, I would imagine there would need to be a LOT of carbon deposits to make the ticking consistent (i.e when it does sound, it always sounds similar to a football rattle - more revs = quicker clicking), even then I'm not sure how carbon deposits (lodged or floating about in the oil) can make the sound.

So that leaves #4, given that the part (0515.S2) seems very rare, it sounds like it's not something that often goes wrong (obviously doesn't mean mine hasn't), so I want to try to ensure it is that before trying to get the part and replacing it. (horsedentist's suggested supplier doesn't respond to emails, and just wants phone calls :( )

From what I can tell (from this - pg 4), it should be fairly easy to confirm with 2 people, but my main issue is having someone sitting in the car to confirm when the ticking is happening, whilst the other (me) is investigating all with the engine running. Seems like the easiest way to tell is:
1) jack the car up on the passenger side (LHD), support with an axle stand.
2) Take wheel off, and wheel arch protector.
3) Get someone to sit in the car and start the engine, with letting me know when the ticking starts and stops, whilst I try to see if the source of the ticking is indeed from the crankshaft pulley.

Which to me, step 3 does not sound all that safe? (with the combined factor of someone sitting in, along with the vibrations of the engine, possibly having to be revved).

I did think after getting the arch protector off I could put the wheel back on, and then drive it up on ramps to check it, but the wheel would obscure the view from the side, which I believe is probably the best vantage point for checking if it is the crankshaft pulley.

Anyone got any better ideas?

Thanks

Ben
2004 Citroen C5 3L V6 Auto
Brit living in Sweden with an imported from Germany French Car!
User avatar
CitroJim
A very naughty boy
Posts: 49518
Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
Location: Paggers
My Cars: Bluebell the AX, Polly the C3 Picasso, Pix the Nissan Pixo, Propel the duathlon bike, TCR Pro the road bike and Fuji the TT bike...
x 6156
Contact:

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by CitroJim »

Given it's a V6 I'd be doubtful about the crank pulley. I've had two of them go on ES9 engines and witnessed a third and unless the C5 one is radically different then they usually just howl and screech - never heard one ticking...

However, I'd be keen to check the auxiliary belt tensioner as that could conceivably cause it along with the aircon compressor pulley/clutch and even the alternator - especially if the alternator has one of those clever over-running pulleys that affectively allows it to freewheel when it's not actively needed for charging duties...

Easiest way to eliminate all related to the crank pulley and all bits driven by the auxiliary belt is to pop the belt off and run it without for a a time when you know the ticking noise will make itself heard...

A good way to check the crank pulley is to pait some lines on it and observe if they move relative to each other...

Like this:

Image

If the clicking stays then you will need to suspect there's something going on with the cambelt tensioner or jockey wheels and an inspection therein would be valuable...

It could always be a sticky hydraulic tappet. A lot of ES9 engines can be a bit 'clicky' when they first start up - especially a warm start - but the noise soon goes as soon as oil pressure/volume is fully established up in the camboxes...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: It could always be a sticky hydraulic tappet. A lot of ES9 engines can be a bit 'clicky' when they first start up - especially a warm start - but the noise soon goes as soon as oil pressure/volume is fully established up in the camboxes...
That'd be my guess too. I was talking about this with David Hallworth when I visited him the other day, his V6 had somewhat noisy tappets just like mine, probably noisier, and mine do quieten down after the engine has been running a little while. I've always put it down to the hydraulic tappets taking a wee while to adjust.

Given Ben's -10 to -20 degree ambient conditions it could be that the oil is a bit sludgy and dirty or maybe just the wrong grade for very cold conditions. As I said earlier in one of Ben's threads, I'd try an oil change and filter first to an oil grade known to cope well down to -20 (maybe even fully synth for minimum viscosity variation) and only then worry about more obscure and expensive causes for the noise...
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
Ben82
Posts: 1086
Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 07:47
Location: Sköllersta/Örebro, Sweden
My Cars: C5 V6 2004
x 7

Re: C5 - clicking with revs

Post by Ben82 »

Only thing there is Simon, is that our temperature over the past few weeks has been around 0C (snow had mostly melted, until yesterday!), it's only the past couple of days that it's gotten slightly colder, even the lowest temperature has barely reached -10C (see here for weather history for the nearest one that logs it - albeit 100km away, but still is pretty much on par with what we have experienced/had forecast). Even if they put 10W40 in at the last service (very unlikely), it should be okish (not back in early-mid december though).

Getting 0W40 + a filter will cost around £60-£70 over here (with being imported than bought here, otherwise looking in excess of £100), 5W40 would reduce the cost down to around £40-£50... with tools on top of that another £10-£20, so looking at around £50-£90. The Pulley is about £72, so both are in the same cost range.

Hence why it would be good to eliminate any other things I can for free (or low cost).

Jim, thanks, hot or cold, morning, midday, evening, you can almost guarantee it will make the noise at some point during the journey, just not exactly when, it comes and goes.... can have the car idling once warm (or even cold) with it making the noise in neutral, and not touch anything and it'll disappear, or if it's not making the noise, it can reappear. Used the cruise control coming home earlier, flat fairly straight road, 70kph, revs were steady around 16-1700, and it came and went a number of times for the ~5km I had the CC on for. So with that it and your description it sounds unlikely to be the tappets as it sounds like it's something that you can get to happen on cue?

Aux belt sounds like a good starting place, however since I can't guarantee within a specific timeframe when it'll happen, it may make it difficult to diagnose, as I'm guessing I don't want the car running for too long without it?
Shouldn't it be fairly easy to tell whether it's coming from the tappets or the aux belt too? (if I have someone helping me saying when they hear it in the car etc), i.e. tappets: it'll be louder nearer the top-front/back of the engine, and something on the aux belt will be in the lower left front?

Cambelt + gubbins were replaced on the 13th September, could be faulty I guess? (was a Gates one they used, and seems to be the recommended one to go for?)
2004 Citroen C5 3L V6 Auto
Brit living in Sweden with an imported from Germany French Car!
Post Reply