XM 2.5 TD 1997 - Starting Grief!!

nickfulham · Post by **nickfulham** » 28 Sep 2003, 21:10

Great car in all respects.170,000 (almost)carefree miles.
New clutch fitted appx 3,000 miles ago.
Starting gremlin - can start first time (to date this has been normal)
or no signs of life. Relay click under dash, all dash lights dim and
nothing. 10 minutes later starts perfectly.
Battery checked 13v held,charging rate 100%, all connections good.
Ignition key 'start'position seems slack.....
Could this be worn barrel? not engaging start position all the time?
Help please........too heavy to bump all the time.
Citroen dealer says new starter motor, but doesn't really have a clue
methinks - just wants to sell part!!
Thanks your assistance,
Nick Fulham

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 28 Sep 2003, 21:25

Well -
If you're sure the starter is feeded on the solonoid from the key - then it's definately a starter overhaul/replace job.
I'd say this is likely on a 170Kmiles engine - that's approx the expected service life from a starter.
The problem may simply be worn out brushes in the starter.
Starter motor overhaul is a typical/cheap DIY job - but a no-no at garages - considering the labour cost. Therefore garage job is allways a replacement.
As preliminary starting help - it may just do the trick to tap on the starter motor while engaging the key.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » 28 Sep 2003, 21:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by nickfulham
Ignition key 'start'position seems slack.....
Could this be worn barrel? not engaging start position all the time?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This could be the source of your trouble. I would put a test meter on the end of the starter cable, getting a helper to turn the key a few times. If sometimes there's no reading, your guess is correct. If you get a reading every time, move on to the starter.

Jonesy · Post by **Jonesy** » 28 Sep 2003, 22:50

Nick
Sounds like dodgy ignition switch to me. It would have had a hard life in 170,000 miles! May be able to dismantle it and see.

rg · Post by rg » 29 Sep 2003, 11:52

My 2.5 is a bit younger (75K), but I want to head off any problems by preventative maintenance (ever the optimist....yes, I _do_ know it's a Citroen)
Any suggestions as to what to spray in the ignition key barrel to give it an easy life, yet not dislodge muck/inadvertantly set up an insulating film.
Ditto wondow mechanism.
rg

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 29 Sep 2003, 22:10

If you want to preserve the lock barrel itself - avoiding any lubing fluid reaching the electrical contacts - I recommand the use of graphite powder.
It's kind of an "old-fashioned" stuff to use - but it works well.
The ignition lock barrell has a barrier between the lock itself & the electrics - but this can not withstand dispersing lubing fluids.

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 30 Sep 2003, 02:44

I'm afraid I can't agree with Anders concerning the lifespan of diesel starter motors - mine has done nearly 500 000 km and is still going strong. The alternator on the other hand wears out brushes at around 240 000 km (yep ,changed twice so far). One thing I discovered is that the big lead battery terminals that Citroën fit are only fit for the dustbin! cut them off and replace with bronze clamps (you can buy them with cam-action fitting for almost nothing - £5 pair). Even if this doesn't solve your current problem, it will be one thing less to worry about and will give you about + 0.5 V at your headlamps (very much needed!)
//NiSk

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 30 Sep 2003, 03:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm afraid I can't agree with Anders concerning the lifespan of diesel starters <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
[:D][:D]
You don't have to be afraid NiSk !
In fact my own BX19D has done some 340Kkm - and only took off this starter to give it a preventative overhaul - which showed to be mostly vaste of time [:p]
This is because diesel starters have a reduction gear - sturdy & lasting - and then the brushes don't wear (burn) - like you see it on a standard petrol starter.
Clearly I had my petrol starters in mind [:)]
Which points to an ignition key - or related problem for Nick.

nickfulham · Post by **nickfulham** » 16 Nov 2003, 18:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by nickfulham


Great car in all respects.170,000 (almost)carefree miles.
New clutch fitted appx 3,000 miles ago.
Starting gremlin - can start first time (to date this has been normal)
or no signs of life. Relay click under dash, all dash lights dim and
nothing. 10 minutes later starts perfectly.
Battery checked 13v held,charging rate 100%, all connections good.
Ignition key 'start'position seems slack.....
Could this be worn barrel? not engaging start position all the time?
Help please........too heavy to bump all the time.
Citroen dealer says new starter motor, but doesn't really have a clue
methinks - just wants to sell part!!
Thanks your assistance,
Nick Fulham
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

nickfulham · Post by **nickfulham** » 16 Nov 2003, 18:55

Thanks for all the ideas.
turned out as follows:-
Alternator belt had part shredded, went through cambelt cover and
started to jam camshaft end!!!
Solenoid on starter was loose, only one screw remaining.
New loctite -ed screws, new belts and once more 100%
no new parts, just belts.
Thanks again,
Nick Fulham


Great car in all respects.170,000 (almost)carefree miles.
New clutch fitted appx 3,000 miles ago.
Starting gremlin - can start first time (to date this has been normal)
or no signs of life. Relay click under dash, all dash lights dim and
nothing. 10 minutes later starts perfectly.
Battery checked 13v held,charging rate 100%, all connections good.
Ignition key 'start'position seems slack.....
Could this be worn barrel? not engaging start position all the time?
Help please........too heavy to bump all the time.
Citroen dealer says new starter motor, but doesn't really have a clue
methinks - just wants to sell part!!
Thanks your assistance,
Nick Fulham
[/quote]

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 17 Nov 2003, 01:46

Wow! there's a real reason for opening the bonnet occasionly - trouble with diesels is that they just go on and on for ever - you get lazy and then something like this turns up. Just goes to show you - keep your eye on anything that moves!
//NiSk

first-things-first · Post by **first-things-first** » 17 Nov 2003, 05:43

Glad your car is back up and running (I hope if the other issue is sorted).
Sorry to hijack the thread but could you tell me something about your 2.5 TD.
I have one too and just run in as well (160K). As you have just changed the clutch, can you tell me if the clutch engagement is now much smoother and has better travel (in terms of bite point). Not wishing to tempt fate but mine feels quite short of travel when it bites and I guess is just due to age. The engagement is not really a problem and there is no sign of slippage. I am now used to the action (at first thought it too short and a little stiff) but would like to know for reference. As they are hydraulic clutches cables will not be an issue. I am spoiled as my other car is much younger (2000) with hydraulic clutch and only 26K and is very light and with a lot more range before biting.
Thanks
Andrew

nickfulham · Post by **nickfulham** » 20 Nov 2003, 01:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by first-things-first

Glad your car is back up and running (I hope if the other issue is sorted).
Sorry to hijack the thread but could you tell me something about your 2.5 TD.
I have one too and just run in as well (160K). As you have just changed the clutch, can you tell me if the clutch engagement is now much smoother and has better travel (in terms of bite point). Not wishing to tempt fate but mine feels quite short of travel when it bites and I guess is just due to age.
Andrew,
Yep smoother and better travel now.
However mine did suffer slippage and was onto rivets when we removed.
I would guess 150,000 is the start of the end of clutch life...
Best Regards,
Nick
Thanks
Andrew
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

first-things-first · Post by **first-things-first** » 20 Nov 2003, 04:50

Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to know it would be better for reference.
Hope this has not tempted fate, but as I do mainly motorway miles it should (touch wood) last some more miles).
What was the damage doing yours (if you don't mind). I would assume quite a day's job for the DIY (removal of driveshafts, drop engine, etc.). Clutc is about £160 from GSF alone.
Cheers
Andrew

nickfulham · Post by **nickfulham** » 23 Nov 2003, 16:38

Andrew,
12 hours!! Good traditional mechanic and me as 'monkey'.Up on ramp.
Hardest part is removing all the paraphenelia above/infront of the
engine (intercooler etc)then you can see the rabbit!
Then detach/drop LHS and only loosen LHS E mount. Plenty of wriggling
and an hour to line up t-bearing and hydraulic lever.......
The mechanic is 'time served' non techy guy, who really understands the principles of mechanics - a rare find.
Charged me £240 for his time and ramp.
You soon notice slippage as you'll pull away like an auto!!!
Good luck.
Nick
Hope this has not tempted fate, but as I do mainly motorway miles it should (touch wood) last some more miles).
What was the damage doing yours (if you don't mind). I would assume quite a day's job for the DIY (removal of driveshafts, drop engine, etc.). Clutc is about £160 from GSF alone.
Cheers
Andrew
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