Amsoil/Redline ATF for my AL4 gearbox

[begins]

Hi all,

After 2 changes of Esso LT71141 in my C5 (year 2007), I don't find improvement in my gearbox smoothness hence I will be considering either Amsoil or Redline ATF in my next ATF change (probably in about 2 weeks time).

The 2 mentioned brands are widely available here, whereas Esso LT71141 is harder to come by and its price is on the high side.

They are also a direct replacement for LT71141.

Redline at: http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=51&pcid=9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Amsoil at: http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/atf.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will also be adding this stuff to the gearbox:

XADO EX120 Revitalizant for automatic transmissions at: http://xado.us/index.php?route=product/ ... uct_id=352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will give you guys a field report subsequently after the change.

Regards,

[spider]

I'd be cautious about fluid that states its a replacement. I'm not saying its not suitable, just a bit cautious about it.

I've seen several transmissions in an unhappy state after being filled with regular ATF...

[CitroJim]

I agree with Andy and would further add that if changes of LT71141 have not improved the function of the 'box another refill with different fluid is unlikely to as well...

[begins]

I'd be cautious about fluid that states its a replacement. I'm not saying its not suitable, just a bit cautious about it.

I've seen several transmissions in an unhappy state after being filled with regular ATF...

Both Amosil and Redline are a reputable brands and I have used these brands interchangeably in all my ex-cars. Perhaps to me these are not just any regular ATF.

Right now my transmission is already in an unhappy state so I guess it is not harm to try. The worse is simply replace the gearbox .

Regards,

[begins]

I agree with Andy and would further add that if changes of LT71141 have not improved the function of the 'box another refill with different fluid is unlikely to as well...

You are probably correct. At least, there is a freedom of choice than to be held ransom by LT71141. I hate those unwelcoming attitude of the dealers and moreover the price is ridiculously high than even those premium oil.

Regards,

[begins]

Just for sharing purpose, which I’ve taken from a BMW Forum:

"I take a professional interest in ATF, they are not all created equal, the vast majority are mineral based, a few "long life" or Extended Drain"
ATF's are Semi-Synth and only a rare few are full synth.

I think ATF is a bit of a mystery and has a fear factor for most people for a couple or reasons, 1 is the amount of meaningless specs from
specific transmission manufacturers, if you look at ATF you see it may be DexronIII + MBXXXX.X and Voith XX.X and VW XXX.XX and etc.. etc.. even if
you dive a Merc, your probably not sure what spec applies to you, all you are told is the Merc shop uses the Merc Bottle, part # whatever..which is
a marked up version of some standard OEM product from a Petro Chemical company such as Esso.. Second reason is, it is usually not part of
warranty service.. meaning the warranty service station takes little interest in it because it is not their problem during the warranty
period.. such as engine oil is, it becomes your problem/responsibility usually after your off warranty.

One specific OEM product from Esso actually contributed allot to this confusion over the past 10 years, Esso Product ATF LT71141, it is a fully
Syth ATF developed for ZF Triptronic transmissions, however it is not sold to the public or to workshops.. it is typically "only" sold to OEM's
for repackaging.. so most of this High priced ATF that uses a specific part# from vehicle manufacturers is this product, and though it was
intended for ZF Triptronics, with the OEM deal in hand many manufacturers applied it broadly to all their gearboxes.. such as with VW/Audi. Now
since it is OEM only and it's a secret recipe you can't find in most cases any other ATF's that reference those part#'s... because part
numbers and product codes are not ATF spec's.. ya it's a mystery.. by design, the design is to take more money from your pocket.

Here's the truth.. in LT71141 the LT stands for "Life Time" .. well thats the first misconception.. I have changed out LT71141 on a few vehicles..
some as low as 55K and I can tell you certainly the ATF had already past it's Life Time.. the main characteristic besides being full-Syth (the
life time reason) is friction modifiers for the synchro mesh clutches in those ZF transmissions.. but it falls under a DextronIII fluid spec,
DexronIII with friction modifiers. Today more than 10 years after it was developed you can find many modern ATF's that have the same
characteristics.. and considering you would be foolish to leave transmission fluid in there without changing it past 60K kms.. most any
long life or extended drain DexronIII with friction modifiers will be fine for you.. especially if you get your transmission in for a flush
about every 20-25K.. after some long research and allot of phone calls and emails.. I flushed out my Part# spec'd ATF for Q8 ED ATF.. ED means
Extended Drain.. because it is Semi-Synth... guess what.. the transmission shifts better than it ever did, and there is less drag
during coasting that when I paid more than double the price for the spec'd fluid.

First thing is you need to match the Type of FLuid.. if your vehicle references a Part# do a little Google and find what category it falls
under (DextronIII etc..) if it is say DexronIII then your gonna be safe with a Multi-Vehicle DexronIII with friction modifiers. The real ticket
to Automatic transmission survival is to change the fluid about every 20-25K and to keep it filled to the correct level.. and don't simply drain
it and refill it.. you need to do a complete flush.. so as not to contaminate the new fluid going in.. and the only way to do that
economically is with a machine based exchanger.. a machine can do most transmissions in about 10-11 Ltrs , by hand it will take about 14 ltrs.

Like engine oil, there are many good quality ATF's out there and many poor quality ones.. don't skimp on quality, but don't get raped by your
vehicle manufacturer or ignore your ATF by leaving it in too long either.. for us we currently carry 3 flavours .. Q8 ED ATF, Q8 ATF, and
ESSO LT71141 in the original 20L packaging.. I am trying to source Pennzoil Multi-Vehicle ATF and Quaker State Multi-Vehicle ATF, that I can
only find in US and Europe currently. Another Good product would be Redline ATF's, but they are pricey.."

Regards,

[CitroJim]

A very difficult and poorly written post that struggles to make a lot of sense really... I've tried hard to read between his confused lines..

I think ATF is a bit of a mystery and has a fear factor for most people for a couple or reasons

Not if you study it carefully...

One specific OEM product from Esso actually contributed allot to this confusion over the past 10 years, Esso Product ATF LT71141, it is a fully Syth ATF developed for ZF Triptronic transmissions, however it is not sold to the public or to workshops.. it is typically "only" sold to OEM's for repackaging..

Not true in the UK. Genuine Esso LT71141 is freely available in the UK to anyone who wants it. Citroen and Peugeot do however repackage it.

Here's the truth.. in LT71141 the LT stands for "Life Time" .. well thats the first misconception.. I have changed out LT71141 on a few vehicles.. some as low as 55K and I can tell you certainly the ATF had already past it's Life Time..

Agreed.

the main characteristic besides being full-Syth (the life time reason) is friction modifiers for the synchro mesh clutches in those ZF transmissions.. but it falls under a DextronIII fluid spec, DexronIII with friction modifiers.

All Dexron ATFs have friction modifiers. ZF specs say distinctly that 'boxes intended to use LT cannot use DexIII if you read carefully and properly.

First thing is you need to match the Type of FLuid.. if your vehicle references a Part# do a little Google and find what category it falls under (DextronIII etc..) if it is say DexronIII then your gonna be safe with a Multi-Vehicle DexronIII with friction modifiers.

Yes, if the manufacturer states it's OK with DexronIII spec. then fine. ZF boxes like the HP20 specifically don't.

The real ticket to Automatic transmission survival is to change the fluid about every 20-25K and to keep it filled to the correct level.. and don't simply drain it and refill it.. you need to do a complete flush.. so as not to contaminate the new fluid going in..

Absolutely. And that's why we recommend a number of quick successional changes...

for us we currently carry 3 flavours .. Q8 ED ATF, Q8 ATF, and ESSO LT71141 in the original 20L packaging..

And there, despite saying that DexronIII will do in place of LT71141, as far as I could understand, he stocks LT71141 as a product line so presumably even he believes there's no substitute for it...

That's how I read it anyway.

[begins]

Hi all,

Just a quick update that my HP20 is now using DexronIII, keeping my fingers crossed. For almost a month or so now, still monitoring. So far so good. Too early to pour in my positive comments, I shall update all after the 3rd month.

Thank you very much for the interest.

Regards,

[Mandrake]

Yikes! Well, good luck with that Dexron III...

[DHallworth]

Can you hear the ticking from it as you drive?

I know if it were my car I'd be waiting for the final big bang from that box now, that's for sure.

Jim has done a huge amount of work with these gearboxes, you'd of been much more sensible to stick with Jim's advice which comes from a knowledgable source but is also tried and tested.

I've got friends who have done a fair amount of work with the 5HP24 in the Range Rover, it specifically says LT71141 is the only fluid to use, after weeks of searching, reading, speaking to ZF themselves, he has also come to the conclusion that LT71141 is the only way to go.

If you do change your mind, find a ZF specialist locally and get them to do a "hot flush" on it, that will remove all traces of the DIII and fill it with the proper stuff. That way you might just catch it before the damage is done.

From reading around I'd certainly say your box is now a ticking time bomb though!

David.

[begins]

Can you hear the ticking from it as you drive?

I know if it were my car I'd be waiting for the final big bang from that box now, that's for sure.

Jim has done a huge amount of work with these gearboxes, you'd of been much more sensible to stick with Jim's advice which comes from a knowledgable source but is also tried and tested.

I've got friends who have done a fair amount of work with the 5HP24 in the Range Rover, it specifically says LT71141 is the only fluid to use, after weeks of searching, reading, speaking to ZF themselves, he has also come to the conclusion that LT71141 is the only way to go.

If you do change your mind, find a ZF specialist locally and get them to do a "hot flush" on it, that will remove all traces of the DIII and fill it with the proper stuff. That way you might just catch it before the damage is done.

From reading around I'd certainly say your box is now a ticking time bomb though!

David.

Thank you very much for the kind advice and I’m already been well informed of the risk by now.
I’ve made up my mind that if it is the worst case, just go find another gearbox.

Yes, I refused to pay a premium for ESSO ATF . For my ex-cars, I also used all sort of ATF and they don’t give me problems.
So long it is a LT71141 compatible, I will try just any premium DIII, which is still cheaper than what local dealer is charging for that overpriced ESSO ATF here .

I travelled a minimum 120Km each day so by now the DIII would have been running for 3600. By the 3rd month, it would have been over 10,000. Should be a good enough test for a DIII. Anyway, we do have a few successful cases locally.

Having said that, I don’t encourage others to try yet. Just let me try for the 1st 10K .

Regards,

[Mandrake]

What was the original problem with the gearbox ? You said you were trying to make it "smoother", in what way was it not smooth before ?

Do you mean that the change between gears is abrupt or harsh ? If so, sometimes an "auto adaptive reset" done with a Lexia will help, by forcing the ECU to relearn the characteristics of the gearbox. This results in harsh gear changes for the first 20 miles or so but after that it is generally better.

Or is the problem that you get shudder (similar to clutch shudder on a manual gearbox with oil leaking on the clutch) when trying to pull at low speed in high gears, such as 50Km/hr in 3rd gear ? If so the problem is most likely with the torque converter lock up clutch linings which may be near the end of their life...

[begins]

What was the original problem with the gearbox ? You said you were trying to make it "smoother", in what way was it not smooth before ?

Do you mean that the change between gears is abrupt or harsh ? If so, sometimes an "auto adaptive reset" done with a Lexia will help, by forcing the ECU to relearn the characteristics of the gearbox. This results in harsh gear changes for the first 20 miles or so but after that it is generally better.

Or is the problem that you get shudder (similar to clutch shudder on a manual gearbox with oil leaking on the clutch) when trying to pull at low speed in high gears, such as 50Km/hr in 3rd gear ? If so the problem is most likely with the torque converter lock up clutch linings which may be near the end of their life...

My C5 jerked when it shifts from 1 to 2. Sometimes, very supple and sometimes quite a hard one. Otherwise, nothing would happen. Occasionally, "gearbox faulty" may appear if the car can't shift to the next gear within x seconds.
I did 5 change of Esso ATF so far but problem still stay.

Right now on high temp DIII, problem seems to vanish and much less occurrence of jerkiness. The burning smell at high speed also subsided.

I drive my car hard and travel long distances in a tropical climate. It looks to me that the Esso ATF can't take the heat.

I'm contemplating to go with after market ATF cooler next.

Regards,

[Mandrake]

Are you sure the existing heat exchanger is working normally ? Do you have a Lexia or an OBD-II reader that can read the gearbox oil temperature ? It might be worth monitoring the oil temperature on a long drive to see how high its reaching. Could well be that in your climate it is overheating.

[begins]

Are you sure the existing heat exchanger is working normally ? Do you have a Lexia or an OBD-II reader that can read the gearbox oil temperature ? It might be worth monitoring the oil temperature on a long drive to see how high is reaching. Could well be that in your climate it is overheating.

Thank you very much for the pointer.
It seems worthwhile to invest in one. Do you know what should the temperature be like?

Regards,