Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
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Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Just trying to get my car back to normal after losing fluid due to a leak on the main pressure pipe, full long and sordid story here http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=40823" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but this is about the current condition of the suspension after repair.
car is a 2001 SX with hydroneumatic (6 sphere) suspension.
After the repair and replacing the 1.5L of lost fluid I thought all was well. I did some citrobics and assumed this would bleed the air from the system. Prior to the problem the suspension was very comfortable and the height was the usual test of 1 and 3 fingers from wheel to wheel arch. After, the suspension was much firmer and was more like 2cm higher than before front and rear, so not height correctors at fault. Also took 20-30 seconds for the stop light to go out first thing. Also the sitting on the tailgate (engine running) test didn't work as the suspension didn't lower at all, very solid, and I am no lightweight.
I did more citrobics and last thing I tried was to open the pressure release at the front, engine off. Lots of air released and things seemed better, but after today's run which was slightly better as regards firmness it is now slightly higher at the front than before when stationary. Stop light goes out in about 15 seconds or less so an improvement. Also sitting on the tailgate made it sink then return to normal at first now it has firmed up again and won't move.
I have been reading up on other posts and get the feeling some of this could be due to pressure imbalances ? Just a feeling as the system seems to work that way. So what else can I try ?
Could it be the front (and/or rear) accumulator sphere(s) ? The front was supposedly replaced but not so sure, and if it was it could have been the wrong one. Is it worth replacing the pair anyway, someone did say a problem with the front sphere could have been a factor in the original leak.
Any ideas ?
car is a 2001 SX with hydroneumatic (6 sphere) suspension.
After the repair and replacing the 1.5L of lost fluid I thought all was well. I did some citrobics and assumed this would bleed the air from the system. Prior to the problem the suspension was very comfortable and the height was the usual test of 1 and 3 fingers from wheel to wheel arch. After, the suspension was much firmer and was more like 2cm higher than before front and rear, so not height correctors at fault. Also took 20-30 seconds for the stop light to go out first thing. Also the sitting on the tailgate (engine running) test didn't work as the suspension didn't lower at all, very solid, and I am no lightweight.
I did more citrobics and last thing I tried was to open the pressure release at the front, engine off. Lots of air released and things seemed better, but after today's run which was slightly better as regards firmness it is now slightly higher at the front than before when stationary. Stop light goes out in about 15 seconds or less so an improvement. Also sitting on the tailgate made it sink then return to normal at first now it has firmed up again and won't move.
I have been reading up on other posts and get the feeling some of this could be due to pressure imbalances ? Just a feeling as the system seems to work that way. So what else can I try ?
Could it be the front (and/or rear) accumulator sphere(s) ? The front was supposedly replaced but not so sure, and if it was it could have been the wrong one. Is it worth replacing the pair anyway, someone did say a problem with the front sphere could have been a factor in the original leak.
Any ideas ?
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Ay up, CJ!
Sounds like you got an air lock in the system still. Lower the suspension, depressurise the system then loosen the beeld screw 1 1/2 to 2 turns. Then start the engine and let it idle until foam stops appearing in the LHM tank. Then do come citerobics and repeat.
Sholud sort it.
Sounds like you got an air lock in the system still. Lower the suspension, depressurise the system then loosen the beeld screw 1 1/2 to 2 turns. Then start the engine and let it idle until foam stops appearing in the LHM tank. Then do come citerobics and repeat.
Sholud sort it.
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- IrfanIbrahim
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
sorry to intefere but does air lock effect the steering as well? just had a problem with my car just now where it wont rise to normal after lowest setting and steering is'nt working either. then i had it rise to normal again after few tries but the steering is abit unresponsive and hard. also noticed air bubbles in LHM tank when the car is in lowest setting.
1994 Xantia 2.0I
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
When you do Citerobics, it is important to leave the car at the bottom of the cycle for at least 30 seconds, as the air bubbles get larger and escape when the pressure is at its lowest, but there is not much pressure to push them through the system, also, the the spheres take quite a while to push out all the LHM, even aver there is not enough pressure to raise the car off the stops..
- IrfanIbrahim
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Might be a stupid question but maybe someone can explain to me steps of citerobics?
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
CITAEROBICS (however you care to spell it!)
Car parked on reasonably smooth surface (you don't want to lower it onto a gert lump of concrete or similar) and away from kerbs for the same reason, and engine running:
IMPORTANT: Xantias use a special mineral oil hydraulic fluid, LHM (Liquide Hydraulique Minerale). Other hydraulic fluids are not only incompatible but will attack the 'rubber' seals etc. in the system - effectively making the car a write-off. Clean fresh LHM is bright green, with age and heat this becomes straw coloured, it's common for the LHM bled from the callipers of a neglected Xantia to be a dirty brown colour!
CHECK LHM (hydraulic fluid) LEVEL: Move height lever fully back (HIGH) and wait for car to stop rising completely (might take 30 seconds), check LHM level at reservoir, the little red 'flying saucer' indicator should be just below the top orange line. If it's near or below the bottom line, very slowly add more fresh LHM until the indicator is about 3/4 way up from the bottom line to the top line. If it's above the top mark give the 'glass' a gentle tap as they sometimes stick.
EXERCISE: Move height lever between each of its positions HIGH (fully back), INTERMEDIATE, NORMAL, LOW (fully forward), pausing at each position until the height has completely settled. It's normal for the suspension to take 15-20 seconds to start responding to a change in control lever position. Wait at least 30 seconds in LOW after the suspension appears to have stopped moving. This is important to allow the suspension to fully depressurise and push any air out of the brakes/suspension system.
NOTE: Apart from early 'sinker' Xantias, the PAS and the suspension/brakes are two separate hydraulic systems that share only the reservoir. The hydraulic pump actually has two separate pumping elements for the suspension/brakes, (high pressure, lower volume) and for the steering (lower pressure and higher volume. Both low LHM level and a slipping/broken auxiliary drive ('fan') will affect both the suspension and the brakes - belt problems will also affect alternator, water pump and A/C compressor.
CAUTION: HIGH and LOW are SERVICE ONLY positions with the suspension locked against the Rebound and Bump stops respectively. The car should never be moved (other than on a smooth floor) while in these positions. INTERMEDIATE is only for CAREFULLY negotiating flood water or very rough ground for a short distance at LOW SPEED.
Car parked on reasonably smooth surface (you don't want to lower it onto a gert lump of concrete or similar) and away from kerbs for the same reason, and engine running:
IMPORTANT: Xantias use a special mineral oil hydraulic fluid, LHM (Liquide Hydraulique Minerale). Other hydraulic fluids are not only incompatible but will attack the 'rubber' seals etc. in the system - effectively making the car a write-off. Clean fresh LHM is bright green, with age and heat this becomes straw coloured, it's common for the LHM bled from the callipers of a neglected Xantia to be a dirty brown colour!
CHECK LHM (hydraulic fluid) LEVEL: Move height lever fully back (HIGH) and wait for car to stop rising completely (might take 30 seconds), check LHM level at reservoir, the little red 'flying saucer' indicator should be just below the top orange line. If it's near or below the bottom line, very slowly add more fresh LHM until the indicator is about 3/4 way up from the bottom line to the top line. If it's above the top mark give the 'glass' a gentle tap as they sometimes stick.
EXERCISE: Move height lever between each of its positions HIGH (fully back), INTERMEDIATE, NORMAL, LOW (fully forward), pausing at each position until the height has completely settled. It's normal for the suspension to take 15-20 seconds to start responding to a change in control lever position. Wait at least 30 seconds in LOW after the suspension appears to have stopped moving. This is important to allow the suspension to fully depressurise and push any air out of the brakes/suspension system.
NOTE: Apart from early 'sinker' Xantias, the PAS and the suspension/brakes are two separate hydraulic systems that share only the reservoir. The hydraulic pump actually has two separate pumping elements for the suspension/brakes, (high pressure, lower volume) and for the steering (lower pressure and higher volume. Both low LHM level and a slipping/broken auxiliary drive ('fan') will affect both the suspension and the brakes - belt problems will also affect alternator, water pump and A/C compressor.
CAUTION: HIGH and LOW are SERVICE ONLY positions with the suspension locked against the Rebound and Bump stops respectively. The car should never be moved (other than on a smooth floor) while in these positions. INTERMEDIATE is only for CAREFULLY negotiating flood water or very rough ground for a short distance at LOW SPEED.
2011 Grand C4 Picasso VTR+ 1.6HDi in Kyanos Blue
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
1995 Xantia Estate SX 1.9TD in Vert Vega "The Green Lady" - after 11 years now owned by XanTom
1998 Xantia 2.1 VXD Estate in Mauritius Blue - R.I.P. (terminal tin-worm)
- IrfanIbrahim
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
thats very clear sir, thanks for explaining.
1994 Xantia 2.0I
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Thanks xantianut, I wasn't sure about having the engine running with the valve open. I opened the valve twice in normal height position and only got air out. Sounds like I need to do it a few times in low, with citrobics in between, to be sure so I will continue until foaming stops.
I did lose a lot of fluid and drove about 4 miles with Stop showing but all systems working which probably didn't help.
Should I ever get any LHM from the open bleed valve when the engine is running or is it just air ? I had thought the system would be self bleeding in that all air would return to the tank eventually, seems not.
Despite being separate systems I did feel the power steering was a little heavy (normally no resistance which I actually like) for the first few miles of each trip but that could be imagination.
I did lose a lot of fluid and drove about 4 miles with Stop showing but all systems working which probably didn't help.
Should I ever get any LHM from the open bleed valve when the engine is running or is it just air ? I had thought the system would be self bleeding in that all air would return to the tank eventually, seems not.
Despite being separate systems I did feel the power steering was a little heavy (normally no resistance which I actually like) for the first few miles of each trip but that could be imagination.
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi
Xantia HDI 90SX C3 2005 and C3 2006 both 1.4i sensodrives
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Can I ask which pipe was replaced? You see, I've had a similar problem with my CX at the rear suspension. A full re- pipe at the rear including the long 'front-to-rears' but I didn't change the two pipes leading to the suspension struts as these were replaced in the last few years. I'd been getting a problem where the back suspension was standing at normal height and very soft to push down - new spheres fitted so all seemed ok. But if I pushed it down it would stick. The back would stick and not rebound unless I pulled it up. The self leveling would then raise it back up but would then be semi - solid on one side. If I then pushed the bumber it didn't budge. Out on the road it would phase between jerky and soft at the rear. The rear arm bearings are recent and the brakes are completely free so it was neither of those.
On the CX you can't change the rear spheres without raising it off the ground, rear wheels off and then remove the suspension struts. I'd done all this but had trouble with the pipe on the left rear. The pipe union nut had jammed on the copper pipe and with that being softer than steel, had twisted a bit. It seems that the inner bore of the pipe had been crushed by an amount so that most of the pressure was not getting through. This seems to have two effects: the pressure going into the sphere was locking causing temporary firmness on that side. Most of the work was being done by the other side causing that spheres to temporarily see extra load. I replaced the pipe and it seems better
Long story short: if you replaced the pipe that leads to one of the rear struts - check it isn't kinked or twisted. Also check the rubber seal in the strut connection isn't pinched and blocking the pipe.
On the CX you can't change the rear spheres without raising it off the ground, rear wheels off and then remove the suspension struts. I'd done all this but had trouble with the pipe on the left rear. The pipe union nut had jammed on the copper pipe and with that being softer than steel, had twisted a bit. It seems that the inner bore of the pipe had been crushed by an amount so that most of the pressure was not getting through. This seems to have two effects: the pressure going into the sphere was locking causing temporary firmness on that side. Most of the work was being done by the other side causing that spheres to temporarily see extra load. I replaced the pipe and it seems better
Long story short: if you replaced the pipe that leads to one of the rear struts - check it isn't kinked or twisted. Also check the rubber seal in the strut connection isn't pinched and blocking the pipe.
Graeme M
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Not the same pipe I'm afraid, mine was the one from the pump to the pressure regulator. The seal blew (rubber) and apparently these are all rubber seals now so I have used one and it seems ok, apart from the iffy height / firmness. Just for anyone interested here I was given a very good rubber seal by my local garage, much sturdier than the one the main dealer offered. the better one had a rough green outer surface, main dealer one was shiny black.
I will be doing the suggested bleeding of the system tomorrow as it was nice today but rainig for 2 days forecast, so a good time to be in the garage.
I will be doing the suggested bleeding of the system tomorrow as it was nice today but rainig for 2 days forecast, so a good time to be in the garage.
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi
Xantia HDI 90SX C3 2005 and C3 2006 both 1.4i sensodrives
Xantia HDI 90SX C3 2005 and C3 2006 both 1.4i sensodrives
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Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
As the great Leslie Phillips used to say 'oooh narsty'.
I did the set to low and open bleed screw and all went well, many air bubles appeared in the LHM tank and the suspension has softened up so that part worked.
But... when looking at the bubbles (froth really) appearing in the tank I noticed they weren't nice green bubbles but mucky brown ones. So I think an LHM change may be in order, no idea when it was last changed but not in many years I think.
I did the set to low and open bleed screw and all went well, many air bubles appeared in the LHM tank and the suspension has softened up so that part worked.
But... when looking at the bubbles (froth really) appearing in the tank I noticed they weren't nice green bubbles but mucky brown ones. So I think an LHM change may be in order, no idea when it was last changed but not in many years I think.
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi
Xantia HDI 90SX C3 2005 and C3 2006 both 1.4i sensodrives
Xantia HDI 90SX C3 2005 and C3 2006 both 1.4i sensodrives
Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Thanks charentejohn for posting this question, I have just replaced the T pieces in the back end of mine and was about to ask the same question.
instead can i ask you where the bleed valve is or what it looks like?
instead can i ask you where the bleed valve is or what it looks like?
Citroën Xantia 75th Anniversary Limited Edition
Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
Bleed screw is on the pressure regulator, by the accumulator, located just behind the radiator. Bleed screw faces the radiator, and you need a 12mm spanner. Open it no more than 2 turns - just enough in fact to hear the swoosh of the LHM. If you undo it completely, you may lose the spring and/or tiny steel ball located behind it - has been known to catch people out in the past
Martin
1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased )
1995 Xantia TDLX (deceased )
Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
thanks, I'll pop up to the shed in 5 min and give it a go.
Citroën Xantia 75th Anniversary Limited Edition
Re: Xantia suspension height firmness after fluid loss
ok, i cant see any thing on the LHM system with a 12mm head except a brake pipe style fitting on the pump. sorry but i don't know what the pressure regulator or accumulator look like. only new to Citroen's.
also got a ticking when on low, or normal. when it ticks a wire not hooked up to any thing jumps. it's located at the front of the motor hanging down by the oil filter. it has a blue connector on the end like a fuel injector connector but it looks like these are used else where on this car to.
also got a ticking when on low, or normal. when it ticks a wire not hooked up to any thing jumps. it's located at the front of the motor hanging down by the oil filter. it has a blue connector on the end like a fuel injector connector but it looks like these are used else where on this car to.
Citroën Xantia 75th Anniversary Limited Edition