Michelin Energy Savers in winter ?

[Mandrake]

Hi All,

Just some long term thinking ahead here...I'm curious to know how my new Michelin Energy Savers would manage through the winter on the V6 ? I know they're not a snow or winter tyre, but am I likely to be able to scrape through with them ?

Some background on the cars use - although I drive to work its not essential, if we did get badly snowed in for a while with no salt on the road its a half hour walk - in fact I walked to work all through last winter before I had the car. Groceries are 10 minutes walk away and a train station 5 minutes away. In short although its an inconvenience the car is a luxury item that we made do with for more than 2 years, so if there are the occasional times where I can't use it because the roads aren't properly salted its not a disaster.

I'm assuming they would do a bit better than the typical low profile hard rubber "performance" tyres that a lot of cars seem to have and get stuck in the snow with...and Citroen's do tend to be good in low grip conditions due to the suspension...

How many of you run proper winter tyres in winter, and how many just make do with their normal tyres ? Does anyone have any direct experience with Michelin Energy Savers on a Xantia in winter ?

[neil123]

It's not just the snow thing - although they're better in snow, even winter tyres aren't brilliant on packed snow and ice - but its how they perform in cold conditions and especially wet cold conditions. Summer/allyear rubber hardens significantly below 7 degrees. I thought all this was hype until i tried a set of Michelin Alpins, purely because my Xantia was due tyres and it was the start of winter. They are astonishing - wet roads feel like dry roads, cold roads like warm ones. You can leave them on from October to March (all year if you want but they wear faster when warm, and get 'squirmy' when they're hot) and every surefooted mile, you'll thank me. Braking distances are shorter, cornering is safer. And a mile on winter tyres means a mile less on summer tyres, so after the initial outlay it costs the same. I got a set of steel wheels from a scrapyard to put the winters on - so I can swap them over quickly come October. A well-driven fwd car on winter tyres will get you further than most 4x4s on summer rubber. Have a look at michelin's website...

Hope that helps. (i don't work for Michelin!)

neil

[xantia_v6]

Having driven Energy Savers through a few southern UK winters, and on snow/ice a handful of times, I would say they are no worse than any other "summer" tire I have experienced. You just need to adjust your driving style according to the grip, and pray that the other idiots do likewise.

[Northern_Mike]

You just need to adjust your driving style according to the grip, and pray that the other idiots do likewise.

I find this is the main problem for me in winter. Other people. I have no problem driving on the icy roads myself, or even on snow - last year and the year before, 7 miles of my commute was ungritted roads - in an Activa on summer tyres. No problem at all. Bit slippy in places, but take your time, leave massive gaps, and expect it to slide and you'll be fine.

Sadly I saw plenty of other cars in ditches who clearly hadn't heeded that advice. Driving in snow and ice is not hard, it is simply common sense. You wouldn't run down an icy footpath because it's slippery, so why drive fast on an icy road. Same theory..

[Bob1954]

I would second Neil's suggestion, if you can spring for the cost of a set of steel (or even alloy) wheels from a scrapper and fit winter tyres, you will be amazed. Just change over early spring, and you can revert to them if you need a spare...
Besides temperature differences, winter tyre grip on mud is astonishing....
I dropped from 18"245/45 to 175"224/55 on the C5 (albeit it is a legal requirement here, not in the UK), and it brought comfort and safety by the bucketload.

[Citroenmad]

I did have the previous tread Michelin Energy's on my Xantia Activa. I had to use it through some of last winter, we didn't get a lot of snow but what we did I got around just fine with it.



Our oldest C5 is shod with Michelin Energy Savers on the front, its been through a few pairs now. That is very good in the snow, however it does have the smaller 15" wheels with 195 tyres, whcih cut through the snow better than the 16" 215s on my C5.

I dont switch that C5 to winter tyres as it performs ok with its standard tyres. I would say the previous Michelin Energys worked a little better than the newer Energy Savers, as they have some cross directional treads, rather than the straight groves in the newer type.

I do have a set of winter wheels and winter tyres for my C5 and our C5 estate, as they have the bigger 215 tyres and if I lost use of the car due to weather I would be scuppered. To be fair I have only ever got stuck in the snow once, this was with some very borderline (2mm) tread Michelin Primacy Pilots on my previous C5 VTR.

Before I got the winter tyres I went on a 2cv run last year with my C5 with Michelins with about 2.5-3mm of tread. The snow was deep, most of the run was on small country roads which were snow covered. I got there and back fine. It did come to a wheel spinning stop up one steep hill, so I reversed down and rally styled the car to the top
Pics from the run, what looks like water there is sheet ice, I could hardly manage to get out of the car


I really dont know what people do in the snow to no manage to drive in it. So long as the grip is maintained, good stopping distances are left and time is taken, its fine. So many people seem to apply so many more revs at the first hint of wheel spin, lose the grip and your just polishing the snow to ice. One morning last winter it took me more than 3 hours to do my commute due to weather and traffic. The roads were sheet ice, I must have passed more than 5 crashes, most of which were multiple car pile-ups. Too many people drive as if it’s a summers day, a good driving technique and you’ll still be getting around. It’s the other people I worry about, Id rather not be crashed into!

In short, unless we get an ice age happening over winter, you will be fine

[oneday]

two winters ago it took me 7 hours to do a 8 mile trip from work in the snow down to people thinking that they need to spin the wheels to get going. my mate flew home from germany leaving at the same time as me and beet me back home by 3 hours. dont think what tyres you have on make much differance its down to the driver

[Mandrake]

Thanks everyone, I guess it was more of a rhetorical question to reassure myself.

The reality is that I can't currently afford 4 new tyres and 4 spare rims, (especially after just getting two new tyres and doing a number of jobs on the car to get an MOT) nor do I have anywhere to stow a spare set of rims, living as I do in a 2nd floor apartment! (It's enough of a challenge storing two tool boxes, floor jack, axle stands etc, when they're not in the boot of the car, I have to haul them up a ladder into the loft )

I think as long as I drive carefully and I'm not relying on the car to get to work I should be fine. If it gets snowed in for a few days before the gritters are out, so be it. Ironically getting in and out of our shared car park is probably the main challenge, the street that we're on does get well gritted, but the "road" leading into our shared car park typically does not and has a slight uphill incline, so the trouble is actually getting in and out of the car park. I witnessed many cars wheel-spinning their way up that slight incline in the winters of 2009 and 2010

If I had somewhere to stow spare wheels and wasn't short of money I'd have no qualms about getting a set of winter tyres/wheels. It will be interesting to see whether this winter is like the last one where we only got a couple of weeks of snow, or whether its like the disasters that were 2009/2010, which I observed only as a pedestrian...

The V6 does seem to have a good snow mode as well, I was playing around with that recently and it sure does cut down on abrupt acceleration. As well as skipping first gear and changing up early it also seems to disable throttle kick-downs completely, at least at speeds below 40mph or so. I was doing 30mph up a hill testing it, it was in 3rd, and wouldn't kick down to 2nd regardless of throttle opening...probably a good idea as the last thing you want on snow/ice is a sudden unexpected kick down with a huge surge of torque! It still let me manually change down though.

[CitroJim]

Yes, the V6 has a lovely snow-mode and I've used it in anger enough...

I love the Michelin Energy's I have on the Activa and in the summer they are super. Even if they are half as good in the winter then they'll be brilliant...

I will doubtless find out as my Old New V6 has Energy's on the front as fitted and commented about by it's former owner - Xantia_V6

[neil123]

"The reality is that I can't currently afford 4 new tyres and 4 spare rims, (especially after just getting two new tyres and doing a number of jobs on the car to get an MOT) nor do I have anywhere to stow a spare set of rims"

Yeah, given those parameters I'd tend to agree with you!

[Citroenmad]

dont think what tyres you have on make much differance its down to the driver

That was what I was getting at with my 10,000 word essay there Nicely put


I have to say, im not as impressed with winter tyres as I thought I might be. Not having had any problems with my summer Michelins, I still thought I would try a set of winters (Im a bit of a wheel horder!) to see the difference. One arguement which I persuaded myself with is that my unmarked alloys will be kept out of the salt and my summer tyres will last a lot longer ...

There is a difference, especially with pulling away and braking, but its not huge. I have Firestone WinterHawks for winter tyres on my C5, well on the front, the rear has Dunlop 3Ds (a winter tyre too). Our C5 estate has Kleber winter tyres, all perform similar. I would save your money and drive carefully

Evenquality summer tyres make a difference though. When we got our C5 estate it had some 'Admiral' tyres on the front, they were newish but very budget. Our road becomes like polished ice when it snows, its not gritted and our house is on a bend. My C5 with good summer Michelins pulled out of the driveway and up the road fine, but it was a struggle getting the C5 estate out due to its awful tyres.

[Rhothgar]

dont think what tyres you have on make much differance its down to the driver

You've obviously not driven with winter tyres then?

I agree with most posts on here. The general public drive like morons when it comes to driving full stop - let alone on adding snow into the mix.

The difference between summer and winter tyres is huge - grip wise. Quite incredible really! Especially when I show people my winter tyres and ask them to point out the difference in the trear pattern - people simply don't notice the visual difference. So... add these to the same driver and the difference is very noticeable.

I've got some cheapo Star Performers on mine in winter for driving to Austria.

The first time I ever encountered winter tyres and the level of grip they offered was when Sylv's brother picked us up from Salzburg airport and drove us home through the mountains - not mountains like we are supposed to have in the UK but MOUNTAINS with villages and valleys at 1000m+. When Mike drove us up Obertauern up from Untertauern, I very nearly filled my trousers. I still find it hard to believe how anyone can drive up a mountain pass and not drop below 60mpg on some pretty sharp corners that most would have difficulty negotiating in summer. TRULY AMAZING!

ONE CAVEAT!

It largely depends on the journey you have to make.

Generally, we do not actually get snow in the UK. People moan and, yes, traffic comes to a standstill because people simply don't know how to drive properly. Unless you plan to drive on the continent then perhaps save your money. they get REAL snow on the continent.

I remember one journey home from Mansfield once so you will relate to this and it involved driving up Dorket Head past the brickworks. That's a pretty steep hill. It was extremely difficult because it was busy and fraught idiots on the other side sliding down the hill until others at the top realised it was simply NOT safe to drive down. I seem to recall that I did make it up there but only just and that was when I had a clear run finally. With winter tyres, it would have been stacks easier

Having winter tyres does not mean that you can drive badly and get away with it.

[spigven]

I've never driven on winter tyres so can't do a direct comparison. However I've driven 8 winters on Energy Savers in my Xantia TD and they have been excellent. One example: a short steep hill with ice covered by a few inches of snow. There was a team of people helping the cars up the hill, pushing, shovelling etc. All the cars I observed had difficulty and required pushing etc. When it came to my turn I didn't need the assistance of the helper team the xant just plodded up the hill with not a hint of wheel-spin. I do think having substantial weight over the front wheels helps though as my daughters C3 with energy savers is nowhere near as good in the snow.

[Mandrake]

If weight over the front wheels is beneficial the V6 should be a champ as it's a good 200Kg heavier at the front than most other Xantia's

I think what makes a hydro Cit good in slippery conditions apart from weight on the front wheels is plenty of suspension travel and soft springing. With stiff suspension it doesn't take much unevenness in the road surface (clumps of snow etc) to cause the weight on the two drive wheels to become highly unbalanced, causing the lightly loaded wheel to loose grip and spin, and the other wheel to sit idle thanks to the diff.

Softer suspension means maintaining the weight and grip balance between the drive wheels more evenly thus giving more overall grip despite still having a diff. Apart from the soft suspension and a front heavy front wheel drive bias there isn't really much else different between a Citroen and most other cars that would affect the slow speed grip in slippery conditions.

[Sl4yer]

Buy some Autosocks for the chance that you're faced with something tricky. (This is something I say I'll do every year, and have yet to do). And hope the other idiots don't take you out!

My Activa had M+S tyres on it when I bought it. Not suitable for an Activa in good weather, but great in snow or rain. I think tyre condition is more important than type when it starts to snow - keep 3-4 mm of tread on, and you'll do much better.

James