Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

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dawsy 22
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Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by dawsy 22 »

I have recently changed the dreaded swirl valve diaphragm on my 2.2 C5, whilst changing it i replaced the rubber pipe which connects to the swirl valve,when i start the car now the valve doesnt shut until i increase the revs to 2.100 and it then shuts,the car seems to have less power now than it did before the repair as before i got round to replacing the swirl valve i tied the butterfly shut which was a great improvement,I have tried tying the butterfly closed since doing the repair but it doesnt make any difference the car has no bottom end power now either with or without the butterfly being closed.The turbo is working as i have checked the pressure on the hoses but the air doesnt seem to get to the engine,I have taken the rubber pipes from the intercooler off and there are two butterflies on the inlet manifold the upper one was open on tickover the lower one stayed closed(any ideas as to how these two work)I have a planned trip from wiltshire to pembrokeshire tomorrow and was hoping to get this sorted by then but i think i will just have to take a steady drive now IAN
Thanks Ian
cachaciero
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by cachaciero »

Check that you fitted the rubber pipes onto the EV the correct way around, there should be a vacuum on the swirl valve until 2100 rpm after which the vac is removed, sounds like there is no vac on the swirl valve and then at 2100 it gets applied.

cachaciero
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dawsy 22
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by dawsy 22 »

Hi cachaciero I have tried swapping the pipes around on the Ev and still have the same problem the pipe seem to be marked to match up with a similar colour on the ev it has me baffled as this can be the only thing that i have put back any different ,may i also thank you for your previous posts on replacing the swirl valve as they helped me no end replacing it and actualy finding the fault in the first place. Ian
Thanks Ian
cachaciero
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by cachaciero »

O.K just out of curiosity how old is this car as the very early cars actually had a system which worked in reverse in the sense that no vac equated to valves closed and vac was required to open them.

However assuming that this is not the case on your car we need to think about this some more. So question just looking at the arm from the swirl valve engine stopped what direction does it move in when the engine is started. it should move forward. If it does not then this implies no vacuum, do you have a vac gauge that you could T into the O/P of the electro valve? so that the actual vacuum level can be read, wonder if there is another leak in the system so that it needs revs to get enough suck to move the valve after which a bit later the system takes the vac away anyway.

cachaciero
2006 Toyota Prius T Spirit
2001 2.2 C5 Exclusive SE
1996 XM 2.1 TD Auto VSX
1995 XM 2.1 TD Auto SX died @ 140K
1987 CX 2.5 Gti Turbo II dead
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dawsy 22
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by dawsy 22 »

Hi the car is a 2001 on a Y plate .When the engine is stopped the swirl valve is in its rest position which i presume is fully extended opening the butterfly when i start the engine it stays in that position until 2,100 rpm if i increase the rpm more it moves back the other way the manner in which it closes seems to me very precise like its being switched and at higher rpm its more of a gradual movement,I dont have a vacuum gauge but since replacing the diaphragm I have covered 600 miles at motorway speeds plus a little and had no limp mode activations so i assumed the vacuum leak had been sorted out .As i have said in previous in a previous post prior to replacing the swirl valve diaphragm the car had more low end power with the valve tied back towards the bulkhead,which i assume is the shut position.Out of interest which ev controls the swirl valve is it the one attached to air box or one under the cover on the passenger side as these are the only two i have had any dealings with,when i have been investigating the ev when i disconnect the power power from them i can hear a release of vacuum just thought i would add that in case it any help to you
Thanks Ian
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by Monkeyfeet »

I'm just reiterating your findings but in case it helps: I've just replaced the actuator on my 2002 model. Prior to replacement I had the arm cable tied towards the bulkhead (as you describe) which meant the car could pull away normally.
Engine off, the lever is towards the front of the car. Engine started it moves towards the bulkhead, until 2k when it shifts sharply forwards.
I can have a look tomorrow as to which ev controls the vacuum to the diaphragm, but it could well be the one attached to the airbox from memory.
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cachaciero
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by cachaciero »

That sounds curious we need to be very clear about this. This is the way it should be. No vacuum equates to link rod from swirl valve fully retracted (rearward) which equates to swirl valves open.
I get the impression from your post that your swirl valves are closed when the link rod is fully forward. As your car is a very early one I am beginning to wonder if it is one of the ass about face ones. I don't know if there was a difference between the swirl valve actuators, is the new one the same as the old?

cachaciero

Edit correction of swirl valve state no vac
Last edited by cachaciero on 21 Aug 2012, 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
2006 Toyota Prius T Spirit
2001 2.2 C5 Exclusive SE
1996 XM 2.1 TD Auto VSX
1995 XM 2.1 TD Auto SX died @ 140K
1987 CX 2.5 Gti Turbo II dead
1984 Ford Scorpio
1981 CX 2.4 Pallas Auto
Renault 21
1220 GS Club
Rover P6 2000TC
dawsy 22
Posts: 72
Joined: 09 Aug 2012, 21:27
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by dawsy 22 »

Hi cachaciero The new actuator is the same as the old one in appearance.when the actuator is at rest the rod is fully out and when a vacuum is applied the rod is pulled towards the main body of the diaphragm.old one was probably ok as when replacing it i found a split rubber pipe but i didnt want to take any chances,Weather permitting i might strip it all down again tomorrow and try to track the pipework,thanks guys for helping me try to resolve this fault
Thanks Ian
cachaciero
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Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by cachaciero »

dawsy 22 wrote:Hi cachaciero The new actuator is the same as the old one in appearance.when the actuator is at rest the rod is fully out and when a vacuum is applied the rod is pulled towards the main body of the diaphragm.old one was probably ok as when replacing it i found a split rubber pipe but i didnt want to take any chances,Weather permitting i might strip it all down again tomorrow and try to track the pipework,thanks guys for helping me try to resolve this fault
Oh! s**t need to have a look tomorrow as that is the reverse of the way that I remember it working. :-(
cachaciero
2006 Toyota Prius T Spirit
2001 2.2 C5 Exclusive SE
1996 XM 2.1 TD Auto VSX
1995 XM 2.1 TD Auto SX died @ 140K
1987 CX 2.5 Gti Turbo II dead
1984 Ford Scorpio
1981 CX 2.4 Pallas Auto
Renault 21
1220 GS Club
Rover P6 2000TC
dawsy 22
Posts: 72
Joined: 09 Aug 2012, 21:27
Location: Devizes Wiltshire
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by dawsy 22 »

Morning all I have checked all connections this morning and all seem OK tried to work out which EV did what,the one attached to the air box seems to be connected to the butterfly on the inlet manifold,out of interest i connected the old actuator to the vacuum feed and started the car the rod moved back on its self
Thanks Ian
cachaciero
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Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by cachaciero »

O.K Sorry all but I got it the wrong way around in my previous post, really don't know what I was thinking of had a very graphic picture of the swirl valve actuator in my head which I now realize must have been a picture of something else :-(
In short No vacuum, arm extended (forward) valves open, vacuum on arm retracted (back) valves closed. The EV is on the block immediately underneath the rubber inlet pipe from the MAF sensor to the Turbo.

If the arm retracts when the engine started the swirl valves must be closed, UNLESS the pin on the crank which connects to the swirl valve shaft is 180 degrees out which I think you may have to work at to achieve :-)

cachaciero
2006 Toyota Prius T Spirit
2001 2.2 C5 Exclusive SE
1996 XM 2.1 TD Auto VSX
1995 XM 2.1 TD Auto SX died @ 140K
1987 CX 2.5 Gti Turbo II dead
1984 Ford Scorpio
1981 CX 2.4 Pallas Auto
Renault 21
1220 GS Club
Rover P6 2000TC
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
My Cars:
x 9

Re: Swirl Valve Stays open until 2,100rpm

Post by cachaciero »

Gone back and re read the thread, The first post you were very clear, the arm remains extended until 2100 rpm at which point it retracts. We know that the actuator retracts for vacuum applied ergo there has to a problem with the EV or the thing driving it (the engine ECU). Thing that keeps coming to my mind is that is the way it did work on early 2.2's, there was a mod which turned the operation of the swirl valves around and the mod included an update to the ECU program to reverse the drive to the EV.

cachaciero
2006 Toyota Prius T Spirit
2001 2.2 C5 Exclusive SE
1996 XM 2.1 TD Auto VSX
1995 XM 2.1 TD Auto SX died @ 140K
1987 CX 2.5 Gti Turbo II dead
1984 Ford Scorpio
1981 CX 2.4 Pallas Auto
Renault 21
1220 GS Club
Rover P6 2000TC
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