HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

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jamesgmg
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HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by jamesgmg »

Hello!

I'm hoping for some advice on the following situation.

In April 2012 I took my 306 1.9 DW8 (79,800 miles) to a diesel specialist to diagnose poor running. They subsequently removed and re-shimmed the camshaft which fixed the miss-fire. On getting the car home however I immediately noticed the following glaring problems.

• Fuel filter lid clip not fastened resulting in a substantial amount of air entering the fuel system.
• Plastic engine cover missing, only returned after many phone calls.
• Air intake hose clip was not secured.
• Fuel lines not replaced in their clips.

On alerting the garage, I was told the mechanic that worked on my car was new and that this wasn't the first time, but he would be spoken to.

In July 2012, on it's first long run since the work (now 81,000 miles), the car suffered complete engine failure (this was right in the middle of our honeymoon in cornwall!). On opening the bonnet it was obvious the timing belt covers were broken and distorted.

We hired a car for the rest of the holiday and the 306 was later recovered back to the diesel specialist.

They subsequently told me that the mechanic that worked on my car lasted a very short time before they terminated his employment due to poor workmanship.

Just before they had the car, it had had a new timing belt, idler, tensioner, water pump and aux belt so I was confident they are good. Upon the garage stripping the car, this was confirmed, the timing belt hadn't even been broken.

However the camshaft pulley is broken and the camshaft is broken in two places. Bearing cap 3 (pulley end) has a neat crack through the top (visible in the photo below), the other caps are intact but number 2 has a chunk out of the side. The centre piece of the broken camshaft can't be moved, the other two can.

The following photos should help explain.

Image
Camshaft cover removed

Image
Broken camshaft pulley

Image
Clean break between caps 2 and 1. Both caps look intact, but cap 2 has a chunk missing on the left had side, also this side of the cap is scored.

Image
Camshaft break on the driven side of cap 2.

The garage told me they could move all sections of the broken cam shaft, but I can't move the centre section under cap 2. It may be the raised valves under the cam lobes holding it tight onto the cap though?

Because they claim the cam shaft isn't seized, they've told me it's not their problem and they are guessing it might be a dropped valve but they don't want to take the head off without charging for it. I really felt I was being fobbed off and kept having to pull them up on things.

I paid them £700 to diagnose and re-shim the camshaft and now I have a potentially scrap car.

Any suggestions on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated?
Last edited by jamesgmg on 04 Aug 2012, 10:28, edited 1 time in total.
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nametooshort
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Re: 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by nametooshort »

Geez, that is serious problems right there. I am not familiar with the DW8, but I don't think I have ever seen a cam shaft snap. like that, that looks like absolute catastrophic failure of something, like you say maybe that cap suddenly stuck onto the shaft. I kind of don't get how the shaft snapped in two places tho. If that cap was stuck, then surely the shaft should have snapped just in one place?

Its also odd to see how the shaft took a chunk of of itself and the cap, it must have moved sideways a lot to do that?

Maybe they messed something up real bad which made the cam shaft bent? I am not exactly sure how that's possible, but maybe the failure was caused by the cam shaft bearings no longer being coaxil?

Maybe the center section can't be moved because there is debris stuck under it somewhere.

Either way, if it was me, I would make as much noise as possible about it, if it's a independent place, ask to see the owner, and refuse to leave until you do, if it's a chain, get straight to their head office. Complain as much as you can, threaten them with legal action, threaten to snitch on them to the authorities (like, the health/safety inspecting people, the environment/pollution inspecting people, etc). It doesn't actually matter if they have no issues, from what I gather no businesses like visits from those people, it always makes their life at least a little bit inconvenient, and they take anonymous tipoffs seriously, etc.

Basically try to be a major pain in the ass until they fix it, by the looks of it they owe you either a new head or a new engine. They are probably just hoping that you would get bored and leave them alone, and gambling on that fact. Don't do that. Don't give up on this situation, they messed up your engine real bad, not your fault. People often eventually give up on situations like these, and make some excuse like 'it wasn't worth the grief' or something, I hate seeing when that happens. I don't know if it's just that I am used to working in one of the most competitive industries around or something, but when someone owes me something I never give up on it (unless its like 20 bucks and you don't like that person anyways, so 20 bucks is worth them avoiding you, but that's not like this).

Also, bitching them out on the Internet is a good idea, because that's really good publicity, and you would be amazed how quickly they will fix your problem as soon as you start making their reputation bad.

Good luck with it all, and don't let them cost you any money! If they try to play the whole ''we don't have much money, please leave us alone or you will bankrupt us and ruin our lives'' card, then ignore that, they will have insurance to cover against stuff like this, and if they dont, then they shouldn't be in business anyways.
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Re: 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by citronut »

first thing i would do is get the car removed from that garage!!!!!! ( do not notify them just turn up with a transporter )
get it checked by an engineer
do not let them go any further as they could/will cover up the actual cause of the failure which was almost certainly caused by them,

they are saying the mechanic does not work there anymore because of bad workmanship, so they have admitted they could be responsible for the damage as they employed him in the first place,

how did the car run after getting it back from re/shimming,
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
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Re: 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by jamesgmg »

Thanks for your replies guys.

When the timing goes out on an XUD/DW8, because the valves are exactly vertical over the pistons, the normal failure is that they are pushed up by a piston and break the camshaft and/or the camshaft caps. So the clean break on the far end of the camshaft I suspect is a result of that.

The break on the driven side of cap 2 looks quite different. To me it looks like it's been twisted apart.

The camshaft caps on the XUD/DW8 engines are line bored, they are matched to the head. They have to go back exactly how they came off, if you break one, technically you scrap the head. The only cap that I can see they could get on the wrong way round is cap 2, and this is where the suspicious break is and it's on the driven side of the cap.

We turned up the other day without notice with a transporter and moved the car back home! I had the keys to the car while it was outside the garage and I've been present for pretty much the whole time they've been stripping it down. I think they get the idea I don't trust them :(
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by Oldpug »

In the last job the garage dismantled the cam pulley,camshaft etc etc and after a short while its all broken and the head is destroyed!!and they say "its nothing to do with us", !!*+"!! off!its down to them!!.Trouble is as in all these cases its going to take time.MONEY,and lots of hassle to prove it.
It looks to me that the cam pulley is the cause of the failure.I have dismantled almost every Peugeot engine and never seen a cam pulley broken like that,its impossible to brake under normal running unless something OR SOMEONE has caused it to brake.The camshaft and caps are broken because pistons have hit the valves,that`s normal on this engine after a cam belt failure,but in this case the cam belt has fallen off due to the broken pulley.Its very difficult to comment just by looking at your photo`s.I would say one or more of the three bolts that hold the outer part of the pulley have been left loose?? The center bolt is tight and you loosen the three bolts when fitting the cam belt,adjusting it,and then tighten the three bolts. SO?,don't say anything to the garage,get an expert to check round the debris,particularly these three bolts to see if my theory is correct,or any other cock up that has caused the failure. Its got to be down to them and I hope you get your full compensation,good luck.
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by Peter.N. »

I would take the centre cap off and examine it carefully, if it had seized there would be evidence of it. Athough the cambelt was not broken if it had slipped it could cause the drestuction that you have experienced. The cheapest way of dealing with it would be to fit a secondhand head if you can find one, there are some cheap new ones but they come bare so you would have the cost of ressembly, there are a selection here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksi ... d&_sacat=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by myglaren »

I second oldpug's advice to have an independent engineer assess the damage and probable cause before you interfere with it an invalidate his findings.
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by jamesgmg »

Oldpug wrote:I would say one or more of the three bolts that hold the outer part of the pulley have been left loose?? The center bolt is tight and you loosen the three bolts when fitting the cam belt,adjusting it,and then tighten the three bolts.
Just been outside to have another look... I notice the cam sprocket is right at the end of the slotted holes. Either slipped or been forced round when something seized?

Now the garage when I questioned them on the process for removing and replacing the camshaft told me that they only took out the centre bolt, not the 3 holding the sprocket onto the hub. And they never loosened the timing belt, they just eased it off and back on the sprocket, so it was never re-tensioned. This struck me as a little odd and not by the book?
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by jamesgmg »

myglaren wrote:I second oldpug's advice to have an independent engineer assess the damage and probable cause before you interfere with it an invalidate his findings.
Yes agreed, I'm not touching anything as it would invalidate the evidence. I really want to see under bearing cap 2 though...
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by spider »

Can't really add a lot as its been covered.

You should not pull the cambelt off / on without loosing the tensioner, its not an old 8v Vauxhall engine where a lot of people did that.

The three bolts on the cam hub should be roughly in the centre not fully up to one end or the other either. I don't mean spot on centre, just not fully at one end if that makes sense.

On the XUD at least, a timing belt failure usually results in a broken cam as indicated above but the few I've seen that have done that have the "cam o three" thing, ie the cam is in three pieces.

Not sure about the cap being the wrong way around although tis good practise to at least mark them in some way so they *always* go back the way around they came off and in the correct places where applicable.

I've never seen the cam hub do that either, I have seen on a DW8 (a very early one) the inj pump sprocket break but I've only ever seen it once, possibly was a badly machined one or something, not related to your issue as I say never seen the hub break.
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by jamesgmg »

spider wrote:Not sure about the cap being the wrong way around although tis good practise to at least mark them in some way so they *always* go back the way around they came off and in the correct places where applicable.
My understanding is that they are machined with the head and therefore matched to the head. Haynes has a paragraph in bold about this, that of you break a cap you scrap the head as you can't use any other cap.
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by spider »

Oh I meant the wrong way around rather than swapping them, if that makes sense. Then again I've not taken a DW8 apart so not even sure if you can fit them the wrong way around or not...
Andy.

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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by jamesgmg »

spider wrote:I've never seen the cam hub do that either, I have seen on a DW8 (a very early one) the inj pump sprocket break but I've only ever seen it once, possibly was a badly machined one or something, not related to your issue as I say never seen the hub break.
Could the belt have been strong enough to break the sprocket? It looks like its dragged it to the end of the slots and then gone "ping". It was a brand new gates belt, not a crap one.
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by jamesgmg »

spider wrote:Oh I meant the wrong way around rather than swapping them, if that makes sense. Then again I've not taken a DW8 apart so not even sure if you can fit them the wrong way around or not...
It looks to me like you could get the middle cap the wrong way around (180 degrees out). And it is the middle cap that look suspect with the way the camshaft has broken next to it on the driven side. The break doesn't look "clean" like the other one either.
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Re: HELP! - 306 DW8 Possible Camshaft Seizure?

Post by citronut »

maybe they cracked the cam sprocket whilst holding it when undoing the center bolt
Regards, malcolm.

current ride a BX 1.7 TZD estate
1986 MK1 BX 1.9na D Auto(in Mothman Andy's stable )
layed up roppy 1.9TD XANT estate, now gone to meet her maker
purple and lilac metalic 2CV(VIOLET)registered to her in doors
1972 DS special been layed up aprox 31 years
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