Hello All,
I was just searching the internet for information and just found this Forum, can anyone please advise me on the following problem, I have with my 1988 Citroen BX19GTI(8v)
I did not have any problems with the hydraulics until about 6 months
ago when the angled return pipe on the reservoir came off and I lost
return fluid from that pipe, I pushed it back on, put a cable tie round the pipe and topped up the reservoir.
All was ok for about 6 weeks.
I then had the 2 return pipes from the passenger side Front Suspension Strut leak, I replaced these with new ones, and put cable ties round where these push onto the metal pipes on the inner wing. All was ok for about 8 weeks.
I then noticed a fluid leak under the passenger side of the car thinking it might be one of the Octopus return pipes leaking I called
upto my local "Andyspares" and bought a new Octopus.
But did not need to fit it because after driving the BX up on ramps I could see that the LHM leak was coming from a return pipe connected to the Security Valve which is mounted above the sub frame on the passenger side. It was the short rubber return pipe which connects between the Security Valve and then connects to the 3 way joint which branches to 2 plastic pipes 1 from the Pressure Regulator, the other plastic pipe goes across the front subframe to the Octopus.
Since replacing this small pipe, the car has been ok for about eight weeks, but Wednesday morning after starting the car, I noticed that the Pressure Regulator was clicking more than normal. Looking under the front of the car LHM Fluid was leaking out at a fast rate, the leak looks about 12 inches to the left of the Security Valve, The car sills are now sitting 3 1/2" above the concrete drive.
Different LHM return pipes seem to be leaking every few weeks.
1, Is this because another component has gone, which is causing
pressure in the return pipes causing them to crack and leak
at the weakest point ?
2, I understand that there is a small metal ball in the angled
return pipe which pushes onto the reservoir. I could have lost
this with the first leak, if this is missing what problem would
it cause ? and are they available from Andyspares ?
Before I start to use Scissor Jacks, Trolley jack to some how get
the car up on ramps, would sure appreciate any advice.
Has anyone else had this problem, or can anyone advise either
via the forum, or email me direct.
Thank You,
Richard G
Located in Norwich, Norfolk.
Email: Richard.Geoffrey@btinternet.com
BX19GTI LHM Fluid Leaks
Moderator: RichardW
Whilst I've never taken much interest in the details of the return pipe circuits I am fairly familiar with them.
I think your return pipe problems are all a sign that at least one of your front struts is leaking internally. Generally this is why the pipes fall off or start to leak at the strut as when the strut is functioning properly the leakage is absolutely minimal. I think what you have done is to prevent the pipes blowing off undr the wheel arch and so with the return system overloaded it then seeks out the next weak point and blasts that pipe off.
Incidentally does your car creak and groan from the front struts when it rises and falls. This is a sure sign the front struts have gone and replacement will produce the most amazing improvement in the ride.
Struts and overhauls have been dealt with recently on this board - so a search should produce interesting information.
It sounds as though you have a problem with the high pressure system. This could be a broken pipe 0or a failed seal. You may be able to eliminate some by careful noting of the time the leak occurs. On startup with the car right down the security valve is closed and the system will simply pump fluid into the security valve and the front brakes. When the light goes out the security valve opend the circuit to the height correctors and the rear brakes as well. If you keep the height lever in the low position and the ticking is normal then you have eliminated these parts of the circuit. If you then try and raise the car and it starts to leak then the fault lies in the circuit beyong the height corrector - ie in the front strut feeds or the strut itself.
Enjoy yourself. Remember that the LHM may run some distance along bits of frame or pipe before hitting the ground.
Jeremy
I think your return pipe problems are all a sign that at least one of your front struts is leaking internally. Generally this is why the pipes fall off or start to leak at the strut as when the strut is functioning properly the leakage is absolutely minimal. I think what you have done is to prevent the pipes blowing off undr the wheel arch and so with the return system overloaded it then seeks out the next weak point and blasts that pipe off.
Incidentally does your car creak and groan from the front struts when it rises and falls. This is a sure sign the front struts have gone and replacement will produce the most amazing improvement in the ride.
Struts and overhauls have been dealt with recently on this board - so a search should produce interesting information.
It sounds as though you have a problem with the high pressure system. This could be a broken pipe 0or a failed seal. You may be able to eliminate some by careful noting of the time the leak occurs. On startup with the car right down the security valve is closed and the system will simply pump fluid into the security valve and the front brakes. When the light goes out the security valve opend the circuit to the height correctors and the rear brakes as well. If you keep the height lever in the low position and the ticking is normal then you have eliminated these parts of the circuit. If you then try and raise the car and it starts to leak then the fault lies in the circuit beyong the height corrector - ie in the front strut feeds or the strut itself.
Enjoy yourself. Remember that the LHM may run some distance along bits of frame or pipe before hitting the ground.
Jeremy
To help you identify where all the problems are coming from I suggest you check this out as it may make it easier to explain & understand.
Check the full story herehttp://www.bx.citroen.org/m15/m15e.html
Alan S
Check the full story herehttp://www.bx.citroen.org/m15/m15e.html
Alan S
Thanks to Jeremy and Alan S for the advice. In the following
F, D, E, refer to the diagram on the web site Alan pointed me to.
Jeremy I can now see that it is NOT advisable to put cable ties round these pipes to stop them from popping off because if the system is working correctly there should be no build up of pressure in the return pipes unless a fault develops, in my case the F pipe where it pushes onto the Reservoir acted as a safety valve and stopped return pipes from under the car from splitting at the weakest point, with no cable ties fitted if any of these pipes come off its easier to fault find and find a faulty component.
When the problem first started pipe F came off and I lost quite a lot of Fluid, I was about 100miles from home I pushed the pipe back on fitted the cable tie, topped the reservoir up to the correct level, it took about 2 ltrs of LHM. Another leak a few weeks later from the Security/ Priority Valve return pipe was only slight. Both Front Struts are very smooth with no noise from low to normal driving position, but if raising the car from the normal to high position and high to normal the driver's side Strut does creak and groan.
Just a couple of more questions if anyone can help.
1, When the Hydraulic system on a BX19GTI is working correct, if you remove the Reservoir pipes F, D and E one at a time, how much LHM fluid would you expect to see returning to the reservoir from each pipe ?
2, About a year ago I read somewhere that there is a small metal ball in one of the return pipes where they push onto the Reservoir,
Can anyone confirm if this is correct or not ?
The car sills are sitting about 3 ½ " above the concrete drive, I have a couple of Scissor Jacks which have a minimum height of 3 ½ " should be able to raise the car enough to get the trolley jacks under the front subframe and lift it high enough to push car ramps under the front wheels. I will repair this latest LHM leak, and then carry out the checks you suggest.
Thanks again for all the advice it sure is appreciated.
Richard.G
Located in Norwich, Norfolk.
F, D, E, refer to the diagram on the web site Alan pointed me to.
Jeremy I can now see that it is NOT advisable to put cable ties round these pipes to stop them from popping off because if the system is working correctly there should be no build up of pressure in the return pipes unless a fault develops, in my case the F pipe where it pushes onto the Reservoir acted as a safety valve and stopped return pipes from under the car from splitting at the weakest point, with no cable ties fitted if any of these pipes come off its easier to fault find and find a faulty component.
When the problem first started pipe F came off and I lost quite a lot of Fluid, I was about 100miles from home I pushed the pipe back on fitted the cable tie, topped the reservoir up to the correct level, it took about 2 ltrs of LHM. Another leak a few weeks later from the Security/ Priority Valve return pipe was only slight. Both Front Struts are very smooth with no noise from low to normal driving position, but if raising the car from the normal to high position and high to normal the driver's side Strut does creak and groan.
Just a couple of more questions if anyone can help.
1, When the Hydraulic system on a BX19GTI is working correct, if you remove the Reservoir pipes F, D and E one at a time, how much LHM fluid would you expect to see returning to the reservoir from each pipe ?
2, About a year ago I read somewhere that there is a small metal ball in one of the return pipes where they push onto the Reservoir,
Can anyone confirm if this is correct or not ?
The car sills are sitting about 3 ½ " above the concrete drive, I have a couple of Scissor Jacks which have a minimum height of 3 ½ " should be able to raise the car enough to get the trolley jacks under the front subframe and lift it high enough to push car ramps under the front wheels. I will repair this latest LHM leak, and then carry out the checks you suggest.
Thanks again for all the advice it sure is appreciated.
Richard.G
Located in Norwich, Norfolk.
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Homer
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard.G</i>
1, When the Hydraulic system on a BX19GTI is working correct, if you remove the Reservoir pipes F, D and E one at a time, how much LHM fluid would you expect to see returning to the reservoir from each pipe ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
This was discussed recently. In general the return hoses should only have a very slight dripping at most.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2, About a year ago I read somewhere that there is a small metal ball in one of the return pipes where they push onto the Reservoir,
Can anyone confirm if this is correct or not ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I am not sure about this but if nobody else can answer the system is the same on all BXs, it shouldn't be hard to find one in a scrapyard.
1, When the Hydraulic system on a BX19GTI is working correct, if you remove the Reservoir pipes F, D and E one at a time, how much LHM fluid would you expect to see returning to the reservoir from each pipe ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
This was discussed recently. In general the return hoses should only have a very slight dripping at most.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2, About a year ago I read somewhere that there is a small metal ball in one of the return pipes where they push onto the Reservoir,
Can anyone confirm if this is correct or not ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I am not sure about this but if nobody else can answer the system is the same on all BXs, it shouldn't be hard to find one in a scrapyard.
The steel ball (non-return valve) is found in hose F (the angled piece) above - inside the end that fit's over the reservoir stud - if it's still there.
My guess is this steel ball is supposed to be there on earlier models - on later models it seems missing - instead a steelball non-return valve is found in one of the return hoses at each front cylinder.
This is because these hose lines are the vent lines for the front cylinder air cavity. During suspension movement this cavity constantly changes volume - the risc that some LHM could be drawn back from reservoir. If that happens - the front suspension cylinders gets hard - since LHM is much harder/slower to press out of the cavity than air.
This steel ball non return valve is a much neglected item on the BX front struts - and in case it's missing - may be the cause of very strange & hairy/mysterious hard front suspension problems.
The whole idea with this non return valve in the front suspension cylinder vent line - is to let the normal suspension movements - during drive - act as a pump to pump out the small seepage of LHM from the cylinder.
My guess is this steel ball is supposed to be there on earlier models - on later models it seems missing - instead a steelball non-return valve is found in one of the return hoses at each front cylinder.
This is because these hose lines are the vent lines for the front cylinder air cavity. During suspension movement this cavity constantly changes volume - the risc that some LHM could be drawn back from reservoir. If that happens - the front suspension cylinders gets hard - since LHM is much harder/slower to press out of the cavity than air.
This steel ball non return valve is a much neglected item on the BX front struts - and in case it's missing - may be the cause of very strange & hairy/mysterious hard front suspension problems.
The whole idea with this non return valve in the front suspension cylinder vent line - is to let the normal suspension movements - during drive - act as a pump to pump out the small seepage of LHM from the cylinder.
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tomsheppard
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On the basis that the pies in question are:
Front and rear cylinder overflow pipes - ideally no fluid - in practice minimal
Security valve and height correctors - same as above except when the car is lowered in which case the excess fluid from the suspension cylinders will use this pipe
Front cylinder vent pipe - as you have found out this starts off sharing a connector and port with the front cylinder overflow - so the answer is the same.
The same should go for the doseur return and this pipe can be used to judge the state of the doseur especially as this pipe isn't shared.
The power steering will always return fluid with the engine running and the steering at rest. This is correct.
In practice some leakage is to be expected but it shouldn't be a continuous flow.
jeremy
Front and rear cylinder overflow pipes - ideally no fluid - in practice minimal
Security valve and height correctors - same as above except when the car is lowered in which case the excess fluid from the suspension cylinders will use this pipe
Front cylinder vent pipe - as you have found out this starts off sharing a connector and port with the front cylinder overflow - so the answer is the same.
The same should go for the doseur return and this pipe can be used to judge the state of the doseur especially as this pipe isn't shared.
The power steering will always return fluid with the engine running and the steering at rest. This is correct.
In practice some leakage is to be expected but it shouldn't be a continuous flow.
jeremy
I just want someone to confirm my idea about internal leaking of LHM. This morning I started the car while it was in top down position (lever in down position). After a while (waited for system to become stabilised) regulator clicked every 8 seconds as the car is in normal driving position. Is this example of internal leackage forced by front struts or maybe doseur (replaced in June)?