XUD/TUD similarities and difference

[nametooshort]

I have some early 60s car, and it was fitted with the worst engine in history (some old all-iron pushrod diesel that made about 25hp, leaked, was unreliable, and that's all BEFORE it aged 50 years or so ).

I was going to fit a VW 1.6TD golf engine and a Suzuki SuperCarry transmission, but now that I have owned a XUD powered car, I decided that XUD diesels are indeed very cool, so I got myself a donor LDV van. That has a 5-speed RWD transmission, but a XUD9 n/a engine.

Problem is, as silly as it sounds, I think that car may be a little impractical with the XUD. I drove it with it's original ~30hp or so engine, and it was bad enough with that. It's a 1950s technology car, it has 1950s brakes, cart springs, a live rear axle, steering box with lots of link joints (rather then a rack) and little skinny tires, and it's RWD of course, to be honest it's pretty suicidal most of the time, let alone on wet roads. At least with it's original engine it was too slow to do anything really bad, and didn't have enough torque to spin the wheels, however, with a XUD it will be powerful enough to actually show just how bad it's handling is.

Also it has a stainless exhaust system, which is 40mm, which i think will be a little restrictive for a XUD engine. That's not a major issue, I will have to modify it somewhat anyways, but I would rather keep most of it if I could.

So, I suddenly had this idea, maybe I can use a TUD5 engine instead of a XUD engine? The TUD will be not that much more powerful then the original engine, and will not have a problem breathing through a 40mm exhaust system I think. And as far as I know, the TUDs are just as legendary and good as the XUDs, only smaller.

I know plenty of people do conversions the other way (fitting XUDs into TUD cars), however I wander, how hard will it be to mate a TUD5 to my LDV transmission?

Somebody suggested that the XUD and TUD may have the same bell housing bolt-pattern, and that in theory it could be a 'bolt on' job, so something can be put together out of off-the-shelf parts, rather then having to machine stuff and make adapters and etc. However, that info may be unreliable. Anybody know?

Can anybody comment on similarities and differences between the XUD and TUD?

I am not interested about engine mounts, belts, exhaust/inlet etc, since that will all have to be custom-made anyways, but what I am interested in is the bellhousing, flywheel and clutch (and starter motor of course).

Anybody know all this stuff? I am sure plenty of people on here did conversions 'the other way' (from TUD to XUD).

Thanks!

[Peter.N.]

Can't help you with the TUD engine I'm afraid but I was interested to hear that there is a rear wheel drive application for the XUD, I was looking to put one in my sons P100 pick up, plenty of FWD drive engines about but all the wrong mountings, are there many of these engines about?

I used to fit Perkins 4/108 engines into cars many years ago, dreadful by modern standards but the cutting edge of technology in those days.

Peter

[addo]

Peter: Tata Telcoline diesels.

[nametooshort]

Hello.

Yes, there indeed was ONE common RWD use of the XUD, and that's in the LDV Pilot (and...whatever it was called before it became the Pilot). There are two types, some are powered by the Ford Transit 2.5di engine, and some are powered by a XUD9 n/a. They have different transmissions. The transmission is also a very good 5-speed box, it's only slight drawback is it's a little long for some smaller cars, but it's an alloy-cased unit and the synchros and keys are usually pretty much immortal, since it's designed to push a van.

As far as I know, the whole XUD family shares the same bellhousing pattern and the same crankshaft mating face pattern, so if you had a donor LDV transmission and flywheel, you could put any XUD in it. Probably won't even need the flywheel, I am not sure.

Of course you will still have to make adapters for the engine mounts and transmission mounts, but to most people making a new engine cradle is much easier then making an adapter plate and modifying clutches and etc. You can make engine mount adapters with just a portable welder and some box section, whereas to make a bellhousing adapter and modify flywheels you need a machine shop.

I believe in the UK (I sort of live in cali but occasionally am in the UK) these LDV vans are still very common, since the postal service used them and auctioned them off, prices are low.

Strangely enough the diesel which I had was the 4108's smaller brother, the 499. I suppose like you say for back in it's day it was advanced, but it aint no XUD that's for sure.

[Peter.N.]

That's interesting, thanks. I did my first conversion with a 4/99 in 1959. Perkins did a whole range of kits for practically every popular car, I fitted mine in a Vauxhall Cresta, the kit was brilliant absolubtly everything you needed even a flywheel and backplate that would fit your gearbox, the Cresta had mechanically driven wipers from a camshaft take off point, the engine supplied even had that! They were a great improvement on the Ford vacuum ones that slowed to a stop when you were pulling hard, these went faster as you did.

My later 4/108 conversions used engines from Bedford vans because the bellhousing fitted all the Vauxhall boxes, I used to scour the scrapyards for overdrive boxes from Cresta's VX490s and the like, the ratios were to close for the low revving diesel so I fitted the gears from the commercial boxes to the overdrive shaft and used the overdrive between them to give me eight gears, made for relatively quiet cruising.

Peter

[nametooshort]

Hmm, I have been trying to research this myself and have come to a dead end, looks like the only way I would find out for sure is to find a TUD engine and compare, although it's usually hard to find one that's out of a vehicle unless you buy one.

[Dippy]

That's interesting, thanks. I did my first conversion with a 4/99 in 1959. Perkins did a whole range of kits for practically every popular car, I fitted mine in a Vauxhall Cresta, the kit was brilliant absolubtly everything you needed even a flywheel and backplate that would fit your gearbox, the Cresta had mechanically driven wipers from a camshaft take off point, the engine supplied even had that! They were a great improvement on the Ford vacuum ones that slowed to a stop when you were pulling hard, these went faster as you did.

My later 4/108 conversions used engines from Bedford vans because the bellhousing fitted all the Vauxhall boxes, I used to scour the scrapyards for overdrive boxes from Cresta's VX490s and the like, the ratios were to close for the low revving diesel so I fitted the gears from the commercial boxes to the overdrive shaft and used the overdrive between them to give me eight gears, made for relatively quiet cruising.

Peter

My first ever Diesel Car was a Mk1 Ford Granada 3.0 ltr V6 - modified to take a Perkins 4/108 , Bedford CF Van bellhousing , Vauxhall Victor FE 2.3 Gearbox . used the old external pre - heater chamber with a push button on the centre console - self timed until you heard the " phutt " of partiallly burning diesel - then start .

A guy I worked with did the brunt of the work , helped immensly that we both worked at a Perkins Agency and were able to scour the parts bins for suitable bits , the most popular conversions were the 4/236 into Landy's which revved higher .
Hardly seems like 35 years ago ......

[Peter.N.]

I fitted a 4/108 in a Granada estate but found it grossly underpowered so I experimented whith the latest cutting edge technology and fitted a PAO Allard turbo charger, the only problem was that because it was so large the exhaust gas flow was not suffucient to give any boost until you reached 3500 rpm when it took off, but as you will know these engines are only good for 4000 rpm so the extra power was not a lot of use.

I took the engine out and fitted a York 2.4 engine from a Transit, with a Scimitar overdrive box and the turbo, that went a lot better.

Peter

[Dippy]

Sounds good Peter , can't remember now but I think the 4/108 was lighter than the essex lump of lead that came out , and we had to chop a coil off the front springs .

No experience of the York Motor , apart from needing earmuffs 3 streets away

Mate fitted a Rover 3.5 V8 in his 3.0 lltr Capri' and had to fit escort springs to bring the nose down !

Rose tinted specs I suppose , but happy ones at that.

First " civilised " diesel I drove was a 305 van - no big licks now but a revelation then .

[Peter.N.]

I had a secret weapon for my suspension needs it was called 'Wigan Road Springs' for a very reasonable sum they would make me up springs to match my requirements, I used to go that way on business quite often so was able to talk to them face to face.

The York engine was quite civilised the one you are thinking of was the first DI engine which you could hear several streets away, the york was the last IDI engine.

The diesel which broke the mold and set me on a 25 year affection for Citroens was the CX, even the early non turbo engines would keep up with the average petrol car of the time and apart from a little vibration at tickover it was the first car that you really wouldn't know was a diesel. The original 2.2 engine came out in the '70s and was enlarged to 2.5 in about 1980, that was the first one I had.

In the mid '80s the turbo version came out and in '87 the "DTR Turbo 2" which was intercooled and produced 120 bhp at 3600 rpm which equated to 0-60 in 10.1 seconds and 120 mph. I originally bought the car for the engine but then came to realise what a fantastic car they were to drive, the central steering knuckles and diravi system made it handle like no car I had ever driven. The replacement XM had some of the original features but was very much a compromise. The only one that is still slightly Citroen is the C5 and I just bought one of those - very cheap.

Peter

[Dippy]

I suspect that most car enthusiasts started out as small boys who took all their toys to pieces , but not all went back together again.

Eons ago when me and my mates got fed up of british bikes , and moved onto the jap stuff - it was like trading a rattler for a roller - bliss , for about 6 - 12 months , then we realised what kept us interested in bikes was the fettling , modding & associated cursing of recalcitrant machinery , so we sold the japs.

An analagy that perhaps befits many FCF members ? still little Boys - Bit Bigger toys - long may it last for those who still can .

Interesting Comments about the CX , never had the pleasure of driving one , drove a customers brand new DS Super 5 as a callow youth , never forgot it - loved it .

Now don't fettle anything much , just read about it - take advice and get assistance . Bring back my 100E , Err no - not really .

[Peter.N.]

I prefer the bikes that fire once every lamp post to the ones that sound like a chainsaw

Peter

[Dippy]

I can still hear my old Dad's 16H coming , god rest his soul.

[myglaren]

I prefer the bikes that fire once every lamp post to the ones that sound like a chainsaw

Peter

When I was an apprentice I used to get a lift to work on a mate's Panther (or James, or Ariel square four, depending on which one he came to first)

Son has just bought a Triumph Speed Triple. I bet it sounds like a squirrel in a cage.

[Dippy]

I prefer the bikes that fire once every lamp post to the ones that sound like a chainsaw

Peter

When I was an apprentice I used to get a lift to work on a mate's Panther (or James, or Ariel square four, depending on which one he came to first)

Son has just bought a Triumph Speed Triple. I bet it sounds like a squirrel in a cage.

Trump - Triples usually sound sublime Still have my late Father's Triumph Speed - Twin ( Bathtub) handbook/manual , you could rebuild the bike from just that .

We had C1 hire car which also sounded brilliant when gunned .