Odd Peugeot 305 GLD - don't make sense

[nametooshort]

Good morning folks.

This is my first post here, but I am sure I will be posting a lot more.

I seem to have this odd fascination with 80s cars that nobody else likes. Although I have some 'real' classics too, I always end up with something beat-up, 80s, usually euro and mostly diesel, somehow. I often try to convert classic cars to use more modern engines too, which is usually again diesels from the sort of late 80s/90s era. Because of that, I ended up obviously working with all the common stuff like VW Merc and Ford diesel engines, however strangely enough never anything French, and for years I have been listening to people telling me that I *NEED* a XUD-powered vehicle, because I would instantly love the XUD family.

So, long story short I ended up nearly buying a Peugeot 305 sedan, only to find a 305 wagon for sale and instantly deciding that it's officially the coolest car iv ever seen, and buying it. Being a wagon too makes it amazingly practical, I already used it to carry a Unimog engine in the back and it's proving to be a great all-around car.

The car sure is great, however there are some very odd things about it, and I was hoping some people here might be able to shed some light on it. I appreciate some of these are noob questions, but remember although I have been around old cars for a long time, this is my first exposure to French cars, so although I could easily tell you how to fit a VW TDI engine into...almost anything, I don't know absolutely anything about these cars.

It seems to have a bit of an identity crisis going on. On the paperwork it's called a 1987 GLD model, however someone suggested it's older then that and must had hung around the dealership for a while before being bought and registered or something.

A bunch of the electrics didn't work, and I want to change the cam belt and water pump (just because I don't know the car's history, and I would rather change them then risk blowing the motor). The problem was the glowplug warning lamp didn't work, and I didn't know what water pump it needed. It seems around 1986 they changed from the smaller rotor to the bigger rotor pump. So I started digging deeper, and realized the whole car doesn't make sense.

First of all, could anybody tell me exactly what it is? Like I said, on paper it's called a 87 GLD 1.8 diesel. The car's serial number is VF3**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff], and the tag matches the paperwork, however using various online guides for identifying PugCit serial numbers, that serial number does not seem to make sense. Online serial-number decoders don't recognize it either, but I assume it's because it's older then the stuff they are designed for. Does anybody know how to decode these older-style serial numbers?

Now the engine. It seems to indeed be a XUD diesel, but that's about all I can tell about it. I think it's not the original engine. The engine number in the paperwork is quoted as OV15012, however I can't find a number on the block. What I did find however is two holes with broke-off pop rivets, so I assume there was an ID plate riveted to that area which subsequently fell off. The engine number seems very short don't you think? Can anybody make sense of that? I know that engine reconditioning companies often mill off the original number and then pop-rivet their own number (which is sometimes shorter and of a different format to the genuine numbers) to that, so perhaps my engine was a rebuild and that's what's happened?

And finally, the wiring loom/engine/instrument cluster don't seem to match. I know different models had different features etc, but I don't understand this. The instrument cluster had both the glowplug lamp and the 'radiator warning' (not sure what that means) lamps installed, and the circuit flexi-board for the cluster had those positions. It also had the orange lamp next to the low-fuel lamp, which I think is low oil?

BUT...the wiring harness did not have wires for either the glowplug lamp or the mystery 'radiator warning' lamp. It had the wire for the low oil lamp.

The engine itself did not have a low-oil or sensor, and the low-coolant sensor hole in the expansion tank was not drilled.

So it seems the engine and cluster and wiring don't match.

The wiring had been badly messed with, for example when I got it, it has NO aux cooling systems, the fans were there and the sensor was there but the relays and wiring were just plain missing, but I think those were removed, however the missing wires (like the glow plug lamp) from the loom were not removed, they were never there.

Looking at various circuits in the book, the only cars that don't have the glowplug wire are the gas cars, but those also don't have a glowplug lamp obviously.

I fixed the wiring loom problem now, I just modified it so the wiring engine and instruments all match, so that's not a problem anymore and all the features work, however I still need to figure out what engine I have, because I need to know which water pump to buy, the small rotor or the big rotor type.

I know when people talk about 'early' and 'late' XUD water pumps, they mean 'early' ones with a clip-on belt cover and no flange, and 'late' ones with a bolt-on cover and a flange for the belt that forms part of the cover, however, that's all like early 90s? I need to figure out of mine is the 'really early' or 'early' type.

Is there any way I can tell without taking the pump out? I would prefer to buy the pump and change it there and then, because otherwise I can't drive this car while the correct pump arrives, and it's a very useful car.

So, could anybody shed some light on the various issues raised in this?

Thanks very much!

[Oldpug]

Your best bet is to talk to Dean Hunter 01977677887. ( http://www.peugeotparts.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) he knows everything about old Pugs and will have all the parts you need. Tip,, make it short and sweet and don`t quote the history above! as Dean can be a bit abrupt on the phone,but he knows his stuff and the parts will be with you in 24hrs,he`s that good.

[CitroJim]

Welcome to the forum

You're right, the 305 is a very cool motor indeed Always liked them myself..

The XUD engine will be the early incarnation of the 1.8 N/A (XUD7) fitted into literally millions of Pug and Cits in the 80s and 90s. I'd not be surprised if yours has been replaced for a slightly later one at some time, possibly from a 205.

On the water pump side, the clincer is whether or not the part of the flange facing toward the rear of the block has a an additional piece of casting on it acting as an extension of the cam cover if you see what I mean. Those are indeed for the later engines with bolt-on cam covers.

As regards rotor sizes I thought all XUD iron-blocked engines used the same larger rotor, The smaller rotor pumps were used in the alloy blocked small XU petrol engines as found in the 205GTi and so on (XU5J and XU9J). These will fit the XUD and are likely OK so if you opt for the petrol XU pump for a 205GTi say, then you'll be OK and be safe.

As regards the cambelt change, on these engines it's an easy job but be sure to carefully pin the pump, crank and cam. The crank is hardest to pin as the index hole lurks behind the starter motor. Carefully check the timing is spot-on before trying to fire up the engine again. One tooth out can mean a world of pain...

Welcome to French electrics! Your glowplugs must be working else the engine, being an IDI, would not be very easy to start so it looks like it's just missing bulb wiring.

Engine cooling on an XUD is very important. On those the fan is operated very simply by a two-stage thermoswitch in the rad and speed is controlled via a resistor on the slow setting. XUDs hate running hot so do get something working there as if it's like most Pugs of that age it has no temperature gauge, only a light. The light means 'Engine Cooked'

The radiator light is most likely a low coolant level warning and these were always very unreliable...

For plenty of XUD info look in the Citroen area of this forum. Although generally about the later 1.9TD XUD9TE it's all still very relevant to your engine.

Can you post any pictures of the 305? I'd love to see some...

[nametooshort]

Hello.

Thanks very much for the info!

I heard XUDs don't like cooling problems too, to be honest one of the things that always prevented me from having them before was all my VW-minded buddies telling me that they are unreliable and overheat and blow gaskets all the time (hahahah....as if the VW 1.6d and td didn't do that!).

When i got it the first thing I did was change the radiator (found a new-old-stock one), fan sensor, flushed the cooling system and fitted the correct aux cooling system wiring, so now that all works.

My car has a temp gage luckily, but I know what you mean about the 'engine cooked' lamp, my friends 86 pushrod 1100cc renault 11 has one of those!

Here are some assorted photos of it.

The day I picked it up:



Showing it's usefulness!

[CitroJim]

Excellent Bit of a workhorse then!

The reputation of the XUD for unreliability is totally unfounded, keep the cooling system in order and no worries at all... The 1.9TDs tend to pop a gasket at around the 150K mark if neglected but catch it quick and have a light skim and a new-type laminated gasket and they’re good for another 150K...

[Peter.N.]

I agree with Jim, although there were a lot of gasket and head failures on the early ones but they were mostly due to the 'modern' rather complicated cooling system that peoply were not accustomed to and in consequence did not bleed them properly and they overheated as a result. My first BX estate I bought form a mechanic who had just fitted a new head gasket but had not bled it properly and cracked the head - he more or less threw it at me.

The 2.1 engine is the best XUD not only is it very torquey and economical but it had a completely redesigned cooling system that very rarely gives trouble.

Peter

[nametooshort]

Hmm, maybe eventually I should look out for a 2.1 XUD then. I assume a lot of common things you can find in a junkyard will have those.

As for the water pump, I know about the whole belt flange thing, mine is definitely earlier then that, but looking at various sources it still shows two rotor sizes.

Here is a screenshot form the FirstLine catalog for the 205 1.8d, since the 205 was in production long enough to cover all 3 versions.
(click on it)


It shows the 'really early' small rotor version, the 'early' big rotor version, and the 'late' belt-flange version.

And here is the menu for the 305, since the 305 was not produced late enough to see the 'belt flange' version, there is only the small rotor or big rotor version to choose from.


The change seems to have happened in late 1986. The problem is, I can't be sure how old my engine is, and since the car's age has been suggested as being 1984-1986, it's right on the divide line.

From what I gather, if I have an early engine then a late water pump will not fit, since the rotor is too small for the hole. If I have a later engine but get an earlier pump, it will fit but the rotor will be too small for it's snail casting, therefore it will not be very efficient and will not pump well enough.

[spider]

I don't have any 305 data unfortunately. I do have some 205F (early) data although you may already have / know this. But for what its worth:

Code: Select all

1201 63 WATER PUMP                                                         
                                                                                
             A005WITHOUT ASBESTOS                                               
             -PETROL EXCEPT (GE)                                                
             -DIESEL EXCEPT (GE)                                                
             UP TO 10/1986                                                      
                                                                                
   1201 A9 A005WITHOUT ASBESTOS                                               
             -PETROL (GE)                                                       
             -DIESEL (GE) UP TO                                                 
             10/1986                                                            
                                                                                
   1201 60 A005WITHOUT ASBESTOS                                               
                                                                                
             -DIESEL SINCE                                                      
             10/1986                                                            

Basically 120163 is up to 10/86 unless its a base model (!) then its a 1201A9

10/86 onwards is 120160

Bear in mind they changed again about 1992 the "with guard / protector" or not, but that's the right angled part cast onto the pump to protect the belt due to the later (bolt on instead of spring clipped) cambelt covers.

[dieselnutjob]

some of the 305s I had




mine had the warning light that looked like a boiling saucepan, and one day it came on and when I stopped a hose had split. the brilliant thing about it was that this light would come on before the engine got hot due to lack of coolant.

I blew the head gasket on my sisters 309 XUD because the bleed screw on the thermostat housing snapped and I couldn't bleed it properly. It does seem critical that all three bleed screws can be opened to let air out after refilling with coolant.

Sorry I can't answer your question but I do remember that the gearbox changed in 86 as well. That said it does sound as though the engine might not be original anyway making the exact year of the chassis somewhat irrelevant

Of all the cars I owned the 305 was the best in snow, ice and mud. Feet off all the pedals in 1st and it's pretty much unstoppable. They have good ground clearance as well.

[robert_e_smart]

305s are class! I am envious! When I was a youngster my neighbour had a 305 saloon in hearing aid beige, his wife had another in baby blue. She got a 309 shortly after, still a good car, much classier than the Chavalier that replaced her husband's 305.

[nametooshort]

It sure is a cool car. People who know me can't figure it out, because I have all these 'real' classic cars too, some of them very rare ones, yet at the moment I seem to be all happy about buying a beat-up 80s front-drive diesel. Oh well...I guess they don't get it .

Everyone got used to me showing up in some big 1960s car or something, and now I have a 305.

Does anybody happen to know how to decode serial numbers? Like you can tell the date of manufacture and original model and spec and etc from the car's serial number, right?

[dieselnutjob]

i think you should join us on the, ahem other forum
you sound like one of us
I'm guessing that 305s must be getting fairly rare now

[CitroJim]

I'm guessing that 305s must be getting fairly rare now

Saw a 305 wagon today on the way to Somerset. Looked good too...