On 2.2 injectors and seals.

[cachaciero]

Well having been pointed in the right direction by myglaren discovered that I had an injector seal gone.
This afternoon found me looking some what pensively at the smoke emanating from failed seal thinking about all the horror stories I had read about extracting injectors on 2.2's and wondering if tomorrow being a work day maybe I should drop it in to the local Citroen dealer for them to do, the fact that I didn't have a spare seal and even more the fact that these days working on cars is a drag it all sounded like a plan, but then the curiosity side took over, often a recipe for disaster . I mean it was only one union, two nuts and a plug to get it out and see what the problem was, heh! maybe I could find a suitable sized copper washer somewhere.
Thus we started in a trice two nuts removed, somewhat slack I thought and one fuel union and the connector....and then the fun began.....
The injector wasn't so tight I could rock it a bit but it wasn't going to come out just with hand force, there ensued an hours work with screw drivers converted to pribars, hammers and other ad hoc wedges to lever the injector upwards an out, finally it started to come. Strange thing was I couldn't see the remains of any copper washer only what looked like crumbly plastic, anyway finally i had got it out by about 15 mill after which it came quite easily.
Now all became clear, there is no copper washer only the remains of a top hat section of plastic which sits down in the injector hole by about ten mil the top edge acting as a flange between the injector base and the head, it was this plastic bit which seems to have been responsible for the injectors reluctance to come out. A neighbor who also has some experience of other cars remarked as he came past that many engines used ordinary O rings as a seals, this I thought didn't seem right couldn't imagine an ordinary rubber O-ring being able to take the temperature.
Anyway this left me with a bit of a problem, no spare plastic seal, nearest Citroen dealer fifteen miles away and as I discovered no suitable sized copper washers lying around in the tool box.
Then I had a thought Ford use PSA engines and there was a main Ford agent at the bottom of the road maybe they would have seal, no luck appears that they use something else but during the conversation with the parts man he too mentioned that some engines use rubber O-rings. A plan began to form...
Of to the local motor factors in search of a suitable sized copper washer, I had two choices a box of copper washers of various sizes, the largest looked like it would probably do and a Renault sump plug complete with washer which I could see looked ideal, sump plug £2.50 box of copper washers £8.00...well I have often had a need for soft washers so the assorted box won, I mean what was I going to do with a surplus Renault sump plug?
Back to the car, damn! biggest washer in the box was a tad to small on inside diameter, there ensued another half hour while I reamed the diameter to fit!!!!.
This gave me a washer that would seal the bottom of the injector to the head all I needed now was something to seal underneath the flange around the shaft of the injector in the rebated hole in the head, well as O-rings seem to have been used on other engines and I had a box of O-rings of all sizes.....

So finally ready to refit the injector which had now been cleaned of all carbon and which would slide in and out of the head with the greatest of ease and so it was done.
Started the engine, damn! it was chuffing a way and leaking quite well, stopped the engine and found that I could now tighten the nuts a little more, having done this the engine ran fine and there were no apparent leaks, however tomorrow will be the real test.

Now this little exercise has as so often the case raised as many questions as answers.
Where were the original copper washers which people talk about? the answer to this is that they don't appear to exist the seal is a plastic one.
Is it that the sealing arrangment is different on the 2.0ltr and 2.2 a perusal of the parts fiche will likely answer this.
Is this plastic seal the reason why 2.2 injectors are apparently difficult to extract?
Is the temperature so low in this part of the engine that plastic or rubber O-rings are quite viable as seals I would have thought not but the fact that plastic and apparently rubber are routinely used as seals in this area would seem to indicate that they are.
There is little doubt that the build up of carbon along the length of the injector adds to the resistance when trying to extract it, so why don't they put a seal lower down on the injector which would limit this and this dear readers is where I come to the real question.
At the lower end of the injector about two inches from the end there is a machined square section groove which runs as a ring around the injector, it does occur to me that if a square section seal was fitted here it would stop the majority of gas and carbon getting further up the injector, make the top end sealing even less demanding and with the reduced carbon build up removal should be very easy so why is there not a seal here?.
Answers on a postcard please.......

cachaciero

[Deanxm]

This does seem a little odd i will agree, petrol injectors are obviously much smaller and under no real stress at all but they do seal at the tip of the injector not 3/4 of the way up the body.
My van goes through these seals like they are fuel, its appetite for them is unbelievable really, but i never do the job myself as its a works vehicle not a toy, i even had a new head fitted and still it eats them, covering the engine bay in black soot and half burnt fuel, do the latest commonrail engines still suffer with this rather stupid problem i wonder? its a problem which they really should have got on top of by now.

D

[myglaren]

You'll need to wait for someone who knows better or has actually done this - same thing really.
there should, I believe, be a 'fire washer' in the injector well - and it's orientation is critical.
The copper washers do burn away, which gives rise to the leaks, 'chuffing' sound, smoke and smell. Also what looks like coal and is unburned diesel and soot mixed together and blown out of the leak.
This applies to the 2L 8V. May be different on the 2.2.

I didn't do mine, just had them done while the car was in for other jobs - timing belt etc. the first time, just after I bought the car and when they fitted the new DMF & clutch.
He did keep the 'coal' for me to see . may still be here somewhere.

[Lighty]

We do loads of these seals, mostly on the 1.6 hdi, the injectors on these are a devil to remove, as they go very deep into the engine.I have found that soaking them in Coca cola gets the carbon off the best. It is not unknown to take all day to get one out. There are hydraulic pullers available, but they are mega bucks to buy.
I have a special tool for extracting the washers, as these are impossible to get out on the 1.6 engine, again due to the depth.
I also have a reaming tool to clean up the seat, before fitting the new washers. The plastic bits are I reckon to centralise the injector, and probably to stop water going into the hole.
here is a link to the reamer
http://www.diytools.co.uk/draper-30823- ... uct-Search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citroenxm]

Your VERY lucky to get your injector out! Even main dealers have scrapped many a 2.2 engine due to failed injector removal.

Anyway.. The injectors copper "washer Seal" simply goes over the end of the injector and sits against the end of the wider part of the body.

Are you CERTAIN the washer was missing and was not left down in the injector hole??? They do sometimes stay behind when an injector is removed.. if you have two on top of each other then that will cause a fireing problem

DONT forget theres also a plastic Seat that sits at the top of the injector where the top of the body is level with the manifold. They useually break too... But the injector seal is simply the coper washer on the end, Above the tip which seals when the injector is bolted down....

[citroenxm]

You'll need to wait for someone who knows better or has actually done this - same thing really.
there should, I believe, be a 'fire washer' in the injector well - and it's orientation is critical.
The copper washers do burn away, which gives rise to the leaks, 'chuffing' sound, smoke and smell. Also what looks like coal and is unburned diesel and soot mixed together and blown out of the leak.
This applies to the 2L 8V. May be different on the 2.2.

I didn't do mine, just had them done while the car was in for other jobs - timing belt etc. the first time, just after I bought the car and when they fitted the new DMF & clutch.
He did keep the 'coal' for me to see . may still be here somewhere.

The "Coal" is pretty impressive really! 2.2's simmilar Steve, but a lot deeper as they pass through the in let manifold, Fuel rail to injector high pressure pipes should be changed a the same time, as they can be a right one to seal up again.

[waynedance]

Got me paranoid about mine now need to check my injectors can you see by just removing the engine cover?

[citroenxm]

if the coal has got to the top of the injector body then its been at it for a while.. the good news is 2.0 8v injectors dont go through as deep a recess in thehead as they do not pass through the inlet manifold and have a 98% better chance of comming out... if theres no coal and shes smooth i would be inclined to leave her!!

[cachaciero]

Your VERY lucky to get your injector out! Even main dealers have scrapped many a 2.2 engine due to failed injector removal.

Anyway.. The injectors copper "washer Seal" simply goes over the end of the injector and sits against the end of the wider part of the body.

Are you CERTAIN the washer was missing and was not left down in the injector hole??? They do sometimes stay behind when an injector is removed.. if you have two on top of each other then that will cause a fireing problem

DONT forget theres also a plastic Seat that sits at the top of the injector where the top of the body is level with the manifold. They useually break too... But the injector seal is simply the coper washer on the end, Above the tip which seals when the injector is bolted down....

Hmm....Having read the above and had a look at the parts fiche think it may need to come out again,:-( I was under the impression that the copper washer seal was at the top of the injector, which means that the original seal did not come out with the injector, the up side is that an additional washer was not fitted here either so currently the injector is either sealing on the original seal or it is sealing on the copper washer I fitted on the top of the injector, my feeling is that it may be a bit of both.

However if the injector seals adequately on the bottom copper washer how the hell does the injector shaft get carboned up, if the seal is good nothing should get past it.

cachaciero

[wheeler]

Most of the time the copper washer stays stuck in the cylinder head & doesent come out with the injector. The washer is usually that bad with carbon build up that you dont really recgognise it as a copper washer which could be easily overlooked.
As lighty says the washers can be a pain to extract (due to the depth & heavy carbon build up) without the special tool. Also getting the new washers to seat right without cleaning them with the special tool can be a nightmare. In my opinion the most important part of doing this job is cleaning the injector seats properly, if you dont you'll have them back out in a few weeks to re do them.
Dont mess about with trying to find a washer that fits from your toolbox, get new washers & plastic sleeves from a dealer.

[woodywoodpecker]

Your VERY lucky to get your injector out! Even main dealers have scrapped many a 2.2 engine due to failed injector removal.

Anyway.. The injectors copper "washer Seal" simply goes over the end of the injector and sits against the end of the wider part of the body.

Are you CERTAIN the washer was missing and was not left down in the injector hole??? They do sometimes stay behind when an injector is removed.. if you have two on top of each other then that will cause a fireing problem

DONT forget theres also a plastic Seat that sits at the top of the injector where the top of the body is level with the manifold. They useually break too... But the injector seal is simply the coper washer on the end, Above the tip which seals when the injector is bolted down....

Hmm....Having read the above and had a look at the parts fiche think it may need to come out again,:-( I was under the impression that the copper washer seal was at the top of the injector, which means that the original seal did not come out with the injector, the up side is that an additional washer was not fitted here either so currently the injector is either sealing on the original seal or it is sealing on the copper washer I fitted on the top of the injector, my feeling is that it may be a bit of both.

However if the injector seals adequately on the bottom copper washer how the hell does the injector shaft get carboned up, if the seal is good nothing should get past it.

cachaciero

Hi did my injectors a couple of months ago and like wheeler says the copper sealing washer usally gets left behind in the head. I got 2 out with a long screwdriver then i got a strip of rag to fit over my screwdriver to clean the sealing face in the head untill they where spotless, i got all 4 copper washers from local diesel specialist for £3 for the 4. The reason they are sometimes difficult to remove is because of corrosion between the injector body and the cylinder head wall as steel and alloy do not go together well which starts the corrosion. Mine all came out very easy so i cleaned the bodies of the injectors and lightly coated them in oil befor refitting them.

[cachaciero]

Most of the time the copper washer stays stuck in the cylinder head & doesent come out with the injector. The washer is usually that bad with carbon build up that you dont really recgognise it as a copper washer which could be easily overlooked.
As lighty says the washers can be a pain to extract (due to the depth & heavy carbon build up) without the special tool. Also getting the new washers to seat right without cleaning them with the special tool can be a nightmare. In my opinion the most important part of doing this job is cleaning the injector seats properly, if you dont you'll have them back out in a few weeks to re do them.
Dont mess about with trying to find a washer that fits from your toolbox, get new washers & plastic sleeves from a dealer.

That there was nothing on the end of the injector I am sure. Just purchased the correct bits from Citroen.
Out of interest what does the special tool look like?, something like a tap on a long rod?

cachaciero

[cachaciero]

Your VERY lucky to get your injector out! Even main dealers have scrapped many a 2.2 engine due to failed injector removal.

I think if I got to the state where there was no option the injector needed to come out or scrap the head I would slack of the clamping screws and then run the engine working on the theory that the power of the engine would "blow" the injector out until it hit the retainer, once the carbon has been broken hopefully getting it out the rest of the way wouldn't be too difficult.

Still believe that any seal which allows combustion products to pass it isn't a seal and still intrigued by the machined groove in the injector which looks tailor made for a square section seal which with pressure applied to the underside would expand and seal the bore even tighter thus preventing any gas that had got past the first seal from carrying carbon further up the injector.

cachaciero

[cachaciero]

Hi did my injectors a couple of months ago and like wheeler says the copper sealing washer usally gets left behind in the head. I got 2 out with a long screwdriver then i got a strip of rag to fit over my screwdriver to clean the sealing face in the head untill they where spotless, i got all 4 copper washers from local diesel specialist for £3 for the 4. The reason they are sometimes difficult to remove is because of corrosion between the injector body and the cylinder head wall as steel and alloy do not go together well which starts the corrosion. Mine all came out very easy so i cleaned the bodies of the injectors and lightly coated them in oil befor refitting them.

The one I got out had no corrosion but a fair amount of carbon along it's length, the hard part was getting it out as far as the end of the plastic injector support after that it was easy.
Did wonder about coating the injector with a dry ptfe lubricant, on the face of it oil if it gets too hot it may form a varnish which could be worse than carbon, I am sure that there are definitive solutions to this problem just not sure what they are, a seal that seals would be a start.

cachaciero

[wheeler]

Out of interest what does the special tool look like?, something like a tap on a long rod?

It's like the idea of a long rawplug, a rod with a cross head spilt in it gets pushed into the middle of the washer then a centre piece screws into the middle of it & it expands it which holds onto the washer & allows you to pull it out. Kind of like the slide hammer ends for pulling the xantia rear axle bearings out if you have ever seen one.
You could improvise with a long bolt thats just fits the hole of the washer & screw it in half a turn enough to grip it, the seal is only copper so the thread should grab it.