Hi all, hope I can be forgiven asking a general question which doesn't even apply to a Citroen, but if it makes things better, it's because I know you are all highly knowledgable and I trust and respect your input a great deal.
Brother's Merc (E270 CDI) won't start. It's a common rail diesel and a few things sprung to my mind, but wonder if anyone else could give general causes of common rails not starting?
Before it failed to start completely, it was intermittent, sometimes wouldn't start, other times would. And, when using the kickdown to overtake, the engine would stall. Now the car cranks but will not catch.
He has no code reader and a bit hard up, so thought I'd help him with anything he can check himself...
Any ideas? Thanks.
Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
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Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
If it cuts out on the kick down, it sounds like an injector lowering the rail pressure. The best way to test is to do an injector leak off test. If an injector leaks fuel too much down the return pipes, this lowers the rail pressure and the car wont start.
If you take off the leak off pipes, and disconnect the injector cables, crank it over and see which injector leaks off the most fuel. One will usually be a lot worse than the others.
I have a set of little bottles to save all the fuel in so you can measure it accurately and not make too much mess. However you can manage without if the problem is really bad, you will get a really messy engine, but you can wash it off after wards. My little kit was over £100, so a bit pricey to do one car.
If you take off the leak off pipes, and disconnect the injector cables, crank it over and see which injector leaks off the most fuel. One will usually be a lot worse than the others.
I have a set of little bottles to save all the fuel in so you can measure it accurately and not make too much mess. However you can manage without if the problem is really bad, you will get a really messy engine, but you can wash it off after wards. My little kit was over £100, so a bit pricey to do one car.
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
DIY leakoff kit.
Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
myglaren wrote:
DIY leakoff kit.
Perfect, easy to see the broken one there
http://www.marklightfootltd.co.uk
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
Hehe, that's the pic of the kit I made being used on my C3 before it went to someone else (3 injectors failed altogether the following year). I knew excessive leak-off could cause the engine to be hard to start from the above-mentioned experience with the C3. Of course, I don't know if my brother's cranked his for over a minute like I used to have to do with the C3 to get it started, but he tells me it will not start at all.
***EDIT*** I've since been told he's cranked it for ages at a time, enough to flatten the battery, but doesn't even try to catch. ***EDIT***
He's also told me that there is a steady drip from the HP pump while cranking, which may or may not have been there previous to this total failure to start, as he hadn't looked under the bonnet until it refused to start at all. I'm thinking maybe that is the trouble if it's causing the high-pressure to be unable to reach the lower limit for engine starting, same as leaky injectors would do. Says it's along the lines of 2 drips a second. Did a quick Google and see others have dripping HP pumps (on various makes of car) but are not complaining of non-starting...
***EDIT*** I've since been told he's cranked it for ages at a time, enough to flatten the battery, but doesn't even try to catch. ***EDIT***
He's also told me that there is a steady drip from the HP pump while cranking, which may or may not have been there previous to this total failure to start, as he hadn't looked under the bonnet until it refused to start at all. I'm thinking maybe that is the trouble if it's causing the high-pressure to be unable to reach the lower limit for engine starting, same as leaky injectors would do. Says it's along the lines of 2 drips a second. Did a quick Google and see others have dripping HP pumps (on various makes of car) but are not complaining of non-starting...
Last edited by JamesQB on 20 Feb 2012, 12:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
I wondered where that had come from
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
Could it be a problem with the lift pump in the tank. The Merc is sure to have one ( I guess ?? ). It's probably a Bosch injection system very similar to the Hdi.
Lift pump failure to feed diesel at up to 1.5 bar will mean the HP pump won't pump to the common rail.
This could cause total fail to start or intermittent fail to start, but, I'm not sure about cutting out on kick down. Unless the sudden acceleration brings on the low pressure pump problem??
Lift pump failure to feed diesel at up to 1.5 bar will mean the HP pump won't pump to the common rail.
This could cause total fail to start or intermittent fail to start, but, I'm not sure about cutting out on kick down. Unless the sudden acceleration brings on the low pressure pump problem??
Cheers, Kev
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
I did say fuel pump to him when going through a mental list of causes I knew of, but he reckons it's working mainly because the drip from the HP pump occurs during cranking. I didn't consider the idea of it working but at lower than normal pressure... another thing to check. In the mean time, I've told him that he should get a seal kit for the HP pump and sort that out anyway, and if it cures the starting trouble, then all the better... but needs sorting regardless.
Incidentally, I read once that the coolant sensor's input will have an effect on the injection timing. Anyone know if a duff coolant temp sensor could cause non-starting? I'm inclined to think not, but...
Incidentally, I read once that the coolant sensor's input will have an effect on the injection timing. Anyone know if a duff coolant temp sensor could cause non-starting? I'm inclined to think not, but...
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
has it got a stop solenoid on the fuel pump have you thought to check the wiring at all if it has? it could be that the wiring has been breaking down slowly over a period of time finally giving up, running a positive lead from the battery to the solenoid will make it click to see if it is operating.
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
Has the the fuel filter been changed ? has the owner been using dirty fuel? If so read my post.
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=37723" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=37723" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I recall seeing a stop solenoid on the HP pump in a diagram he sent me, didn't think of that, I'll tell him to check it. Regarding fuel, as far as I know, it hasn't had anything but station fuel in it. I'll ask him when the filter was last changed.
I've been given more info since posting. He says that before it got to this stage of not starting at all, he used to be able to eventually get it started, it'd go 100 metres down the road and then cut out, when he eventually got it started again and it warmed up, it'd run fine.
So from what I've been told, it's this timeline:
Stalling on kick-down -> intermittent hard to start, cutting out until warm -> not starting at all
I've been given more info since posting. He says that before it got to this stage of not starting at all, he used to be able to eventually get it started, it'd go 100 metres down the road and then cut out, when he eventually got it started again and it warmed up, it'd run fine.
So from what I've been told, it's this timeline:
Stalling on kick-down -> intermittent hard to start, cutting out until warm -> not starting at all
Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi 2006
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007
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Re: Common rail engine not starting - likely suspect?
Thought I'd publish the conclusion to this Mercedes trouble. I told him that I thought the HP pump leak was the likely cause of all symptoms, from stalling to the eventual non-starting due to low fuel rail pressure as a result of the leak. He bought a seal kit, cleaned up the internals of the HP pump (finding a clog of fibres in one cylinder's valve) and checked fault codes using a Chinese code reader he'd bought in the mean time, which showed 'HP rail pressure too low' faults.
Car started after refitting for the first time in months, no leak from previous site, just one tiny one from the stop solenoid which will require a seal to be bought. Car now apparently goes like a rocket. No trouble starting, no more stalling on kickdown, etc., better than it was before any of this trouble started.
Car started after refitting for the first time in months, no leak from previous site, just one tiny one from the stop solenoid which will require a seal to be bought. Car now apparently goes like a rocket. No trouble starting, no more stalling on kickdown, etc., better than it was before any of this trouble started.
Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi 2006
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007
Peugeot 407 2.0 HDi 2007