question re: removing esp switch & cc stalk switch - 2001 C5

[sonoramicommando]

hi all,
had the car hooked up to diagnostics and esp & cc in-op problem is most likely to be hardware problem (wiring / esp ecu).
i doubt i'd use cc all that much (although would be convenient on occasion) and could live without esp, so i'd like to remove the switches.
how involved is it to do them?
is the gearshifter surround different from non-esp or is there just a blank where esp switch sits?
also, is it necessary to remove steering wheel to remove and blank cc stalk?
cheers,
sam

[waynedance]

Do you have any warning lights on saying esp inactive?

Think this will be part of mot soon.

Why do you want to remove the switches?

[waynedance]

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho ... ?t=3750591" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

have a read here something about missing switches part way down.

[sonoramicommando]

no warning light at all - that's the puzzling part. it's as if the car didnt come with one from the factory.
i just want to tidy it up, i guess - cc stalk switch, that just gets in the way.

[wheeler]

There is no blank for the ESP button, On models without ESP the gear lever surround is just solid.
There is no need to remove the steering wheel to remove the CC stalk, you just need to take off the bottom steering column cowling which is just 2 or 3 T-20 screws, you then just depress a little tab to slide out the stalk. Remember there will be a hole left where you remove the stalk.

If you have no ESP warning lights or messages how do you know its not working ? If the ESP is not working then the chances are the ABS wont be working either as the both use the same control unit.

[sonoramicommando]

There is no blank for the ESP button, On models without ESP the gear lever surround is just solid.

that's not cool - im guessing they didnt make non-ESP surround for exclusive?

There is no need to remove the steering wheel to remove the CC stalk, you just need to take off the bottom steering column cowling which is just 2 or 3 T-20 screws, you then just depress a little tab to slide out the stalk. Remember there will be a hole left where you remove the stalk.

is there a blank? i suppose i can make something up easily enough though.

If you have no ESP warning lights or messages how do you know its not working ? If the ESP is not working then the chances are the ABS wont be working either as the both use the same control unit.

i think ABS works because it's pretty easy to test, right? just slam on the brakes and see what it does?
ESP, on the other hand, i think it's not working because the car feels skittish coming out of corner with throttle more open than necessary.

[cachaciero]

hi all,
had the car hooked up to diagnostics and esp & cc in-op problem is most likely to be hardware problem (wiring / esp ecu).
i doubt i'd use cc all that much (although would be convenient on occasion) and could live without esp, so i'd like to remove the switches.
how involved is it to do them?
is the gearshifter surround different from non-esp or is there just a blank where esp switch sits?
also, is it necessary to remove steering wheel to remove and blank cc stalk?
cheers,
sam

This is a V6 Exclusive you should have ESP and you should have cruise control ergo you should have both working, so why not fix them?
I doubt that it is wiring as such, IMHO the wiring and connectors on these cars is not bad and being multiplexed a hole in a wire would affect the world. I would suspect a sensor or incorrect programming, digging into some of the sensor parameters with a Lexia should give you some clues. My first thought was lack of a speed reference, but as on auto cars with ESP speed is derived from the ABS sensors on both the rear wheels I would have expected an ABS failure as well. However as I remember there are several programing options on the auto box /ESP ECU which may affect operation not to mention the engine ECU and it is important to get these right.Like I said needs a bit of digging in with a Lexia, though as a long shot might be worth checking the operation of both brake pedal switches first.

cachaciero

[sonoramicommando]

i've taken the car to two different citroen mechanics, they couldn't figure out.
i'll have to give ABS a proper testing in an empty car park, but i think it works.
the cc brake switch definitely works, i pulled it out and checked it.
the exact fault message escapes me but it has something to do with communication between ecu's.
cheers,
sam

[cachaciero]

I would strongly suspect some incompatability with the Autobox programming options and the ESP Programming options. I had to do a lot of playing around in this area because I had a problem where the autobox would hang on to second gear after doing sharpish turns, turned out that there is a yaw rate sensor in the ESP which I deduced was logically was telling the gearbox to hold gear because it thought the car was spinning, had to change one of the program options in the gearbox as I remember.
But my point is I do remember that in playing around there were combinations that would fail the ESP through lack of comms. Reason for checking the brake pedal switches is that one of them, if permanently made (not an uncommon fault) will inhibit cruise and MAY inhibit ESP not sure if ABS and ESP work together or independently. Really might help if I new exactly the message that they were getting out of the lexia.

cahaciero

[sonoramicommando]

thanks cahaciero.
i ll hook up lexia this weekend and try to find out some more and report back.
im quite apprehensive about altering stuff using lexia, i stuffed up a couple of times already ! =( (it was a minor stuff though, managed to decouple tyre pressure sensors from ecu)

[sonoramicommando]

ok here are some screen dump, maybe someone can make sense of it all better than i ever can...
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c225/ ... ndo/lexia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[cachaciero]

O.K

Out of interest which version Lexia are you using as some of these screens look a little unfamiliar, mind I only look at 2.2 diesel so that may explain some of it.
First screen "Combine" this is one screen I don't recall, however I think that coolant temp and engine speed intermittent is something I have seen on mine when looking at the instrument panel, Intermittent vehicle speed I don't ever re-call seeing and problems with speed data would give cruise a problem. Your next screen is from the Engine ECU and the top line is telling you that it has a problem with data from the ABS/CDS ecu, as speed data is derived from the ABS this is a problem both for the engine and autobox. The next screen is radio and nothing to do with this problem. Slide 5 I don't recognise like I said this Lexia is a little different to the one I use) Slide 6 is the Diagnostic results screen or part of it where's the suspension entry? anyway wouldn't worry about the panel false failures here appear to be common and the engine ECU and gearbox we allready know has a problem with speed.
Bit confused by slide 9 which seems to be the same screen as 6 but with less data.

The one thing that you really need to look at is the ABS and you need to look at that under the parameters and or Programming section rather than diagnostics. The AutoBox diagnostic is telling us that the ABS is present but that the comms is not good, this is a little bit contradictory in that it needs comms to knwo that the ABS is there, so for some reason the autobox is not seeing some data that it needs to see or it is seeing data that it doesn't think it should be seeing and at the moment I think that may be speed data.
You need to understand that the programs for both the ABS ECU and the Autobox ECU have options to cover a variety of equipment fits that could be for the autobox with ABS /ECP speed data comes from the ABS or without (speed data comes from a sensor in the auto box) and for the ABS ABS with autobox, speed data to autobox and there may well be other variations to do with ESP as well. My best guess is that the ABS doesn't have the option set that tells it that it has an autobox, although it maybe that the autobox doesn't know that it has ABS/ESP. Whatever it isn't a wiring problem, the Lexia can talk to the ABS and the autobox sees some ABS data, if it was a wring problem neither of those two cases would be true.

cachaciero

[sonoramicommando]

I think it's version 3.45?

First screen "Combine" this is one screen I don't recall...

That's for the instrument panel. Those faults come up every time, even right after I delete the fault codes. I don't know if there are those faults or they just pop up for no good reason. As far as I can tell, those values seem ok to me.

Your next screen is from the Engine ECU and the top line is telling you that it has a problem with data from the ABS/CDS ecu, as speed data is derived from the ABS this is a problem both for the engine and autobox.

What I think is there is something wrong with the data transfer between engine and autobox, rather than engine/autobox actually having issues. But I don't know for sure.

Slide 6 is the Diagnostic results screen or part of it where's the suspension entry?

This is diagnostic results for "road holding (ABS etc), which I assume to have something to do with ESP also.

Bit confused by slide 9 which seems to be the same screen as 6 but with less data.

This is diagnostic results for "cruise control".

Slide 4, I just threw in there because i wasn't sure what the 5 radio button thingy with "memory" is about.

[cachaciero]

I think it's version 3.45?

First screen "Combine" this is one screen I don't recall...

That's for the instrument panel. Those faults come up every time, even right after I delete the fault codes. I don't know if there are those faults or they just pop up for no good reason. As far as I can tell, those values seem ok to me.
I have a copy of an "info diagnostic" which confirms that all three of these warnings can come up as phantom faults on Lexia so one can probably discard these errors,though i have seen two of them but not the speed one

Your next screen is from the Engine ECU and the top line is telling you that it has a problem with data from the ABS/CDS ecu, as speed data is derived from the ABS this is a problem both for the engine and autobox.

What I think is there is something wrong with the data transfer between engine and autobox, rather than engine/autobox actually having issues. But I don't know for sure.

I am sure you are right, that is what I believe, BUT the failure is not hardware as in wires and connectors it is the actual data which goes down the wires.
The engine ECU, gearbox ECU, and ABS ECU are all connected to the same CAN Bus, each ECU takes in data packets that it recognises and processes them, the results of this processing is put back on the bus for other devices if required. I believe that the engine ECU gets speed data as a packet from the gearbox, the gearbox ECU gets speed data from the ABS processes it and puts it back on the bus for the engine.

You do need to look at the software options selected for both ABS and Autobox.
The results so far from your diagnostic say that the ABS is good it also says that data read from the ABS by the Engine and Gearbox ECU is bad.
Now the ABS diagnostic will probably not care about which software options have been selected so an incorrect software option will not be flagged but having incorrect options set can result in data mismatches and just this kind of error.

cachaciero

[sonoramicommando]

when you say "software" option, do you mean configuration?