eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

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eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by sludgerunner »

Hi,

call me mad as a hatter... but...

im after a td pre-96 bosch vp20... full on mechanical jobby for my 1.9 td... which currently has a AS3 unit on it.. with advance timing issues...

fleabay has currently no td mechanical types on it... but... it has loads of 1.9d pumps (basically a td pump but doesnt have a boost tower with then fun screw in)

would it be possible to take my "fun tower" and fit it to the top of the D pump?.... they look like the same pump to be fair... but you guys know your stuff more than me...

Kind regards... for any comments - "yes im in tight mode its comming upto xmas you know!" haha
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by CitroJim »

No, not as simple as that I'm afraid, it has subtle internal differences and I'd expect the fuelling and advance characteristics to be all wrong for a TD.

Better to try and resolve the problem on your AS3. Have you had a Lexia across it to confirm the needle Lift Sensor is doing its job properly and the pump is responding to timing commands properly?
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by sludgerunner »

no, bieng on the isle of wight, no lexia sessions here...

it was an £80 car 3 years ago... id rather just chuck a mechanical pump on .... i have 2x 1.9d bosch pumps at work see... so thought it might be worth a try...
i noticed yesterday that i have no fuel returning even though ive blown down the line and its clear...... so just giving up on this pump now... as when its running bulb is still rock solid!.. i recon somewhere in the pump the return feed is full of chappie.... just like the underside of the filter housing was that i had to scrape out...

k light comes on when car maintains a constant load, little blip and it clears...,

as it gets warmer though, the light stays on longer, until perminant... then comes the almighty clattering and black smoke.. and no power...

return to the car after an hour... and it starts clattery... then quietens up... then returns as it gets warmer again.

i found the 1 pin green temp sensor broke at the back of the filter housing,...... so i have just earthed the wire, to see if it would cure the clatter when warm but it doesnt...

i swapped crank sensors.. still no difference...

i even unplugged battery for 48hours and gave it an almight ringing of its life for 20mins.. ((until the k light came back on....))

the only thing now could really be, lift sensor which im not paying 70quid just for an injector!.... or jammed pump internally... as no fuel returning... last 3 years has had nothing but waste veg in it....

so snip the #3 injector wire off... remove the green aircon relay, and fit a mechanical pump... is my blunt thoughts...

also from cold the car will not catch...... turns over and over untill battery is flat...

but i always just use a squirt of easystart... lol rattle rattle grunts into life.. after this.. it hunts massively (will stall within 2mins if i let it)... then is fine...

any idea's much appreciated... hahaha lmao
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by CitroJim »

Ahh, that helps.. If you have no return then the lift pump is not working anywhere near as well as it should be and that will adversely affect the ability of the pump to time. It uses the transfer pressure generated by the lift pump to operate the timing device - it uses the fuel as a hydraulic medium - and if the transfer pressure is low the timing cannot work.

There are three causes of poor lift pump operation: A leaky front seal on the pump, gummed vanes and a gummed up relief valve. The latter is checkable by removing and cleaning it. It is located on the top of the pump opposite the fuel inlet union and looks like a round plug in place of an alternative location for the fuel inlet union. The top has two flats on it that can be got at with a 10mm OE spanner to unscrew it. You will then see it has a spring loaded plunger in it and I've seen plenty gummed up and stuck open.

Your starting problems will relate to the pump being set fully retarded due to the lack of transfer pressure.

Otherwise, the pump really is toast and will require removal and disassembly to do anything further.

In view of the situation you can try a 1.9D pump. As long as it's a Bosch it will allow the engine to run, even without an LDA assembly on it but the full-load fuelling will be wrong and you'll have no on-boost overfuelling. This'll make the engine feel a bit flat. Still, better that than what you have...

You can help the full-load fuelling by adjusting the maximum fuel delivery screw carefully so that the engine just red-lines at full throttle and no more. Don't go mad witht his adjustment as it can cause the engine to dangerously over-rev.

One point to note about using the 1.9D Bosch pump is that the driveshaft diameter and taper is different so you cannot use the AS3 sprocket. You must use the sprocket that matches the pump.

Timing you can set by ear. Adjust it on idle so that there is just a hint of 'tinkliness' that clears as soon as you open the throttle. Pick-up from there should be smooth and clean. If the engine knocks on acceleration then you are a tad too advanced...

Hope that helps...
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by sludgerunner »

wow... amazing see... your a god send..

when it clears up im going out to get a bit more oily...

i will certainly try that gummed up thing... im sure it must have something todo with it... as when its cold, it runs perfect...

failing that, on a vw forum, they speak of fitting the top of a mechanical turbo pump (lda) to the non-td pump.. but having to do a bit of adjusting...

so if this was the case... ill put the 1.9d pump on... and be forced to drive like a non turbo... then.. with my other 1.9d pump i can have a go at fitting the LDA from my old AS3...

its like im on a mission to just cut some wires.. you know. :) im on the mechanical buzz...

thanks citrojim.. ill keep all informed...
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by sludgerunner »

Just to let you know...
yesterday morning.. I took the pressure relief valve out (the one with the two flats that is opposite the fuel feed..)

i stood puzzled for a while wondering how it worked, then pushed a screwdriver in the end and realised that it pushed up.. was dirty.. (probably my fingers... didnt stick open though....)

before putting it back in, i poured boiling hot kettle over it just incase inside was jammed up, then gave it a good working with the screwdriver... put it back in.. and... had the same symptoms..... (extreme advance when upto 90c & bulb rock solid even when running no apparent return bieng used)

got to work very clattery indeed... just as expected.. sounding like a 2.5 transit...

On my return journey... from cold, i put a bit of easy start in and then i thought... "the green temp sensor"....... (1pin on mine - which i had previously earthed as the sensor is spinning in the holder), ............. i noticed the plug has another wire in it.........even though IT IS of NO use with my 1 pin sensor... so by chance... i decided to de-earthed pin1..... cut the plug off... and just twisted them them both together.. expecting not a great deal.....

bit of easy start and started... "no hunting" in the slightest! from cold...

did my usual trip.. 15miles home, only flickered the k-light once going over a bump.... no rattling, smooth as a whistle...

This morning i expected too much, i thought id have a go without easystart.. but it just turned over and over... so added the usual easy start and burst into life...

No hunting though anymore...starts and wont stall like it used to hunting...

So either the green sensor was at fault... or.. it was a mixture of things that was wrong with the car..

a part of me thinks still that the above has nothing todo with what ive experienced... i personally think that in the very bottom of the AS3 pump... the timing cylinder... i think is getting stuck on extremes advance and retard.. and maybe as i get my oil 100litres at a time, maybe ive had a complete bad batch that is just full of animal fat... and its taken a long time to burn it off...

....then i think... well its getting cold... the filter housing is split... so it got bypassed a long time ago.. so its just cold 100% veg in there.. and it really needs a bit of heat and maybe even.. dare i say it... ::CRINGE:: a drop of derv........ seems a shame after about 40k though.. to start putting that in!

Next up... clear pipes on everything fuel from engine feed to engine return... to try and find out why i have nothing returning...

also, if anyone has a BROKEN TD bosch pump 93-95..... please let me know.
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by CitroJim »

That's a nice result :) You're right though that on the AS3 a duff temperature sensor should not make such a massive difference as it apparently has. The ECU only controls timing on the pump but it does also control glowplug operation so it might well have been either not lighting them or not lighting them for long enough or not allow post-heating...

The timing device piston does not normally stick but I have seen where there has been extensive bore and piston wear and this will affect the ability of the pump to correctly time and to correctly advance...

Generally, diesels need the timing to be advanced to start well from cold and are not at all easy to start if the timing is retarded. A worn timing device will give retarded timing. Cold advance is needed as the fuel takes longer to get burning when it's cold...

So you still have no fuel flowing down the return line? Check the banjo bolt on the pump return union. It has a small calibrated orifice in it and a mesh filter up the middle of the bolt. The orifice and filter may well be blocked.
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by sludgerunner »

thats my next port of call.. (the banjo microfilter)... i suspect it is clogged... along with the leakoff pipes...

leakoff too... mainly because i think the leakoff doesnt return to the pump does it?.. looks like they t- into the return feed...

also.. to note... someone has mastic'd the holes...that the immobiliser unit bolts on with...on the pump... could you tell me... if i carefully (tactfully) smash the immobiliser collar that surrounds the max fuel screw...? im not fussed if i end up breaking the device totally... it would just be handy to know before i chisel the corner off to find there was a bit of printed circuit board inside the unit... then having to take the lot off and do some more handy (useless) wiring...

have been thinking of re-circulating the return... ((when i get some)) back into the housing again, rather than it travelling all the way back to the tank... anyone else done this or forsee any problems?

thanks again...
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by CitroJim »

Yep, leakoffs tee into the return...

Be very careful about taking violence to the armour. I've seen the max. fuel screw boss broken and also seen an engine killed when a piece of shattered armour ended up in the inlet tract.

The immobilier module itself straddles the stop solenoid as shown on these views of removed armour here

Those picture may also help you in deciding the safest way to de-armour...
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by sludgerunner »

ok, i get the drift..

the pump has already been de-armoured prior to me... and when i got the car (advertised scrap removal) the guy said he had the keypad for it, but it played up, so dont plug it in, its dissarmed at the min, and i dont know the code... lol

so im expecting to have to cut something soon.. :)
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by KennyW »

Sludgerunner,

Try these blogs for info and photo's I took are on MikeT's blog, if you need see more photo's I can an attach them to your blog.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... bosch+vp20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... Bosch+vp20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by Xaccers »

sludgerunner wrote:thats my next port of call.. (the banjo microfilter)... i suspect it is clogged... along with the leakoff pipes...

leakoff too... mainly because i think the leakoff doesnt return to the pump does it?.. looks like they t- into the return feed...

also.. to note... someone has mastic'd the holes...that the immobiliser unit bolts on with...on the pump... could you tell me... if i carefully (tactfully) smash the immobiliser collar that surrounds the max fuel screw...? im not fussed if i end up breaking the device totally... it would just be handy to know before i chisel the corner off to find there was a bit of printed circuit board inside the unit... then having to take the lot off and do some more handy (useless) wiring...

have been thinking of re-circulating the return... ((when i get some)) back into the housing again, rather than it travelling all the way back to the tank... anyone else done this or forsee any problems?

thanks again...
The gubbins that control the immobiliser are in the top of the black block.
There's a wire inside it that goes to the stop solenoid, so one of the three wires to the immobiliser should be a switched 12v feed.
I'd have a go at carefully chipping the mastic out to unscrew the two hex bolts that hold it in place.
Once it's free, there's enough give in the wire to the stop solenoid to swing the immobiliser out the way and apply your own 12v feed. (guess who did this by the side of the road in a dodgy part of MK because someone didn't tighten an earth properly) ;)
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by spider »

Thought as there's a lack of TD pumps, assuming you fit like for like (ie: a Bosch if that's what you have) is there any real reason you cannot just go grab a Bosch TD pump off a 19TD 306 / 405 / ZX ?

I know there might be small differences but I'd guess a few swaps of external pipeworks and that should be it ?

Perhaps I've misunderstood (I'm simply basing this on ancient advice (not from here) in the early days with a 406TD they said you *had* to use an early Xantia mech pump if you did not want to keep the immob. although never gave a reason...
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by CitroJim »

spider wrote:Thought as there's a lack of TD pumps, assuming you fit like for like (ie: a Bosch if that's what you have) is there any real reason you cannot just go grab a Bosch TD pump off a 19TD 306 / 405 / ZX ?
No reason whatsoever. Basically the same pumps so long as you don't mind loosing the immobiliser...
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Re: eureka.. vp20.. d not td.. ??

Post by sludgerunner »

Yes .... That's what I want to do

97- as3 pumps are littered for about 30 quid on fleabay...
93-95 fully mechanical ones are getting rare, and going from 75 to 125 ish...

Seems others have the same idea! Lol just my luck.

Thanks for all your help though, certainly some great reading.

Car is running fine at the moment, even turned the max and the UFO up today too, kinda astonishing aye!
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