Autobox Problem

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Carsten S
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Autobox Problem

Post by Carsten S »

Hi,
Got a Xantia V6 with a 4HP20,
It "slips out of gear", and sometimes it have a strange noise. (Like the pump don't get enough oil)

I have changed 13L oil on it now, and it's getting better, but it still give me a headache. It still slips out of gear when cruising - But if i floor the pedal, it pulls fast away from 0 to 150 km/h, like someone was after you. The last part makes absolutely no sense to me, why does the slipping stop, when driving with WOT?.
Often when i lift the throttle, the snow and sport start to blink, and the 'box is in limp-home mode.

The old oil is red (Dexron i presume) #-o :roll: - The oil still looks strange with some dark debris in it, maybe from the clutchpack?

It is possible to buy parts for these gearboxes, at a fair price, or do i need another 'box?

(Sorry for my English, it's not my native language.)
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CitroJim
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by CitroJim »

Hi Carsten and welcome :-D

I'm just off out for the day now but later I will reply properly. Please wait until then but in the meantime have a look at this thread detailing my first 4HP20 rebuild...

It may answer some of your questions but later I'll reply properly...
Jim

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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by Deanxm »

Im sure this has cought Jims eye already and he will expand later but if the oil is red and its had Dexron2 in it that is bad news, these boxes must use special Esso oil ONLY

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Carsten S
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by Carsten S »

Thanks guys,
The other thread answers a lot of my questions - I have to pull the 'box down and apart. :cry:
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by KevMayer »

When you changed the oil did you top it up with the engine running?
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
Carsten S
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by Carsten S »

KevMayer wrote:When you changed the oil did you top it up with the engine running?
Yeah, with Lexia on, and ~70-C oil temp.
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by CitroJim »

Hi Carsten and sorry for the late reply. I've been very, very busy and had little spare time just recently. A combination of work, an XM V6 with a dead 4HP20 and getting my HDi ready for its annual test of roadworthiness has eaten into my time badly...

I'm pleased you found my long thread useful.

Firstly, as pointed out, DEXRON is the wrong oil for these gearboxes and it will kill it sooner or later. That you have debris in the oil is worrying and this needs to be investigated. You either have a badly worn B or E clutch or your torque converter lock-up clutch is badly worn and breaking up. What happens is the lock-up clutch in the torque converter wears and sheds friction material which begins circulating in the oil and starts to clog the filter. It can do other damage like scoring the oil pump housing and damaging the plain torque converter neck bearing. Also, as the filter clogs, the system gets starved of oil which results in a loss of hydraulic pressure and this in turns causes more clutch slip and more wear.

The falling out of (4th) gear sensation is most likely caused by one of the main drive clutches slipping due to low hydraulic pressure, either because of a clogged filter or because of a broken spring in the valve block.

Driving it hard it would remain in 3rd gear and so you'd not experience this problem as it looks confined to 4th gear.

It would also be interesting to read the gearbox ECU with a Lexia to determine why the snow and sport lights flash. I suspect it is again clutch slippage causing an out of tolerance speed differential between the input and output speed sensors. The difference in speed registered by the two sensors is primarily how the ECU 'knows' what gear the gearbox is in and also if these is excessive clutch slippage.

In any case, the gearbox will have to be dismantled. Luckily it is not a big job to remove the engine from a Xantia (easier than it looks) and the gearbox itself is quite straightforward to dismantle providing you know how. Have you seen my website? It does describe how to strip the gearbox in some detail and should help.

Also, I have just had delivered to me this evening a 4HP20 from an XM V6 that I shall be rebuilding for its owner over the next few weeks as time allows. That one has lost all drive and my work on that one, which I'll be documenting, may well help you with yours.

Spare parts are readily available in the UK. They're expensive but if you act quickly the most you may need are a set of gaskets, a reconditioned torque converter (essential) and a new filter along with 9 litres of the correct oil, Mobil/Esso LT71141. I know it is expensive but it is the only oil to use in these gearboxes and sadly there is NO substitute.

Hope that helps...
Jim

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Carsten S
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by Carsten S »

Hi Jim,
Thanks for you answer. :)
Most of the Dexron should hopefully be out now, or at least thinned, as I've changed 13L (LT71141). The problem is, that the oil gets dirty quite fast, probably because of a slipping clutch.
It is random which gear it slips out of, even when is goes into limp-home mode, there is sometimes no drive.
When the pedal i floored, it starts in first gear, and you can easily feel that it's changing towards the gears. (Of course, this is when the snow and sport light stays off)

Exactly, Lexia points out that difference in speed in/out is out of range, or something similar, i don't remember the exact word.
I have read both the other thread, and your website about the 4HP20 - Very informative, good work. This website is also about the 4HP20; http://www.artio2m.com/index.php?6417b4 ... 63260e89ff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is no other way, then getting the gearbox out of the car.
Can't wait to follow your XM-project.

Just checked with a currency converter. I pay £ 11,69/L incl.VAT, for the oil, at my local Citroën dealer. Not that expensive i think.
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by CitroJim »

Hi Carsten,

Pleased you found my answer helpful... That is a good price for LT71141
Carsten S wrote: There is no other way, then getting the gearbox out of the car.
I'm afraid not :( Even if you could separate the gearbox from the engine sufficiently there is no room to either lower or raise it with the engine in place. Also, one major difficulty is getting the TDC sensor out. It is almost hidden and functionally inaccessible. It must be removed otherwise it'll be broken.

Honestly, the job of removing the engine is not that difficult. The hardest jobs are to remove the right hand driveshaft and disconnect the exhaust; the latter requiring some agility and a specially bent 10mm spanner.

Apart from that, it's just a lot of disassembly and disconnection. You must remove the coolant radiator (for risk of damaging it), the LHM reservoir and ABS block as well as moving the fuse/relay box to one side. The engine is an easy lift on the four lifting eyes and you don't even need to remove the bonnet...

I think your Lexia diagnosis definitely confirms a slipping clutch and if the gear drop out is in any gear randomly then low oil pressure is the most likely cause. Inspect your oil pump very carefully! Sadly, these are expensive, getting on for £300 :shock:

I shall be interested to see what you find and we can compare notes with this XM gearbox I have here. It is suffering a very similar fault although it progressed very quickly from some drive to none at all...
Jim

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mongoose100
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by mongoose100 »

Jim, it is possible to remove 'box with engine still in car, did so on my V6. Pain in the rear tho and took 6+ hours.

I did have the luxury of using a hoist too, so it was dropped from below
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by CitroJim »

mongoose100 wrote:Jim, it is possible to remove 'box with engine still in car, did so on my V6. Pain in the rear tho and took 6+ hours.
And there was me thinking it was impossible as well. I spent many days trying to see if it would and concluded it wouldn't :(

Mind you, one big advantage of having the whole shooting-match out is that it makes replacing the cambelt and water pump a lot easier...
Jim

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Carsten S
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by Carsten S »

Well, final conclusion is, the gearbox must down for further inspection.
I think i may take the gearbox alone, but time will tell how much space for it to come down. Maybe i take the "powerunit" complete.

Photos will follow.

Thanks for your time and answers :)
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by CitroJim »

Carsten, I've just started on the XM gearbox and the strip and rebuild is covered in this thread. It may help you a bit in doing yours...

May I please recommend you remove the power unit complete. It will be a lot easier in the end, believe me... Don't try to remove the gearbox alone...
Jim

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Carsten S
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by Carsten S »

Great work Jim, I'll bookmark and follow your thread :)

Well, the timingbelt needs replacement also, so yes, complete power unit out.
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Re: Autobox Problem

Post by CitroJim »

It makes sense because it's a lot easier to do the timing belt with the engine out... I also recommend replacing the thermostat and waterpump whilst it is out and also, whilst access is easy, reseal the camboxes as Xantia_V6 has just done in this thread.

Also, it's not a bad idea, whilst it's out, to reseal the sump pan as well. It uses the same sealant method and can be prone to leaks.
Jim

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