ZX: stick, deal or cash in?

[geb042]

I'm after some advice re. a dilemma I now have with my '95 ZX 1.9D.

Car is low mileage (less than 50k miles), and in immaculate condition with no rust whatsover on the body or underside. The interior is mint as well. In fact, the car is in the same condition as most ZX's would have been when they were less than 2 years old.

As the car is 16 years old, it's also recently had complete new brakes and lines (front and rear) fitted (genuine Citroen parts used, as well as a new radiator (all fitted as precautionary maintenance). I'd say, as it's a diesel model, it's got to be worth £800.

Except for:
The problem is that the gearbox differential bearings now appear to be on their way out and the clutch now bites fairly high. A garage has quoted me £1200 (inc. VAT) to repair the gearbox and fit a new clutch, which is more than ther car's worth. Car drives fine for the time being, and will probably do so for a fair amount of time yet.

Do I stick with the car (i.e. spend another fortune on it [more than it's worth] and hope that I don't get hit with another show-stopper big priced repair for the foreseeable future) OR cut my losses, sell it for £3-400 as a spares / repairs car and look out for another clean, decent low mileage car of the same size for sub-£1000 (not necessarily a Citroen though)?

Thoughts please....

At times like this it makes me wished I'd have bought a £300 banger rather than something 'better' / longer lasting, as I'd have just binned it and moved on. It would be a shame to do that with this car, but also ridiculous to fork out so much on it.

[Norlander]

Stay with it .... would a gearbox off a scrapped car make repair cheaper?
.... real question is not what the car is "worth" in hard cash,
but in utility ... a very different calculation!
Ok, it's a body-immaculate ZX 1.9 td with big mileage still to go in its engine
-------------- seriously, just what is a better alternative?

[RichardW]

1200 quid??? what are they fitting - a solid gold diff??? There are millions of these boxes around - snag one off a local scrapper and stick it in. £400 tops including a new clutch. If you're not kitted out for a clutch change (and a ZX D will not be too tough) then someone one on here might take it on for a few bottles of shandy - whereabouts are you?

Oh, and I'm surprised the diff is going at only 50k - these boxes are generally bomb proof, but there's always the exception I suppose...

[Peter.N.]

As Richard says I am surprised you have clutch or gearbox trouble at 50k these boxes shoul be good for at least 200k unless its been run short of oil or the clutch has been habitually slipped. Unless you are certain of these problems I would get a second opinion.

Peter

[geb042]

Cheers for the responses so far!

Car has actually done 37k miles and has never been abused at all. I too am surprised that the gearbox is suffering trouble.

The bother all started back in the April when I had driveshaft trouble. Citroen wanted £360 for a new shaft (very OTT pricing), so I ended up sourcing two new AMK recon units - at £50 each I had both sides fitted by garage A. Afterwards, the gearbox developed an oil leak from where one of the shafts fits into it. Garage A wanted paying to sort this, so I took the car to garage B. They refitted the shaft with new oil seal, but the leak was still there. A replacement shaft was then fitted by them under warranty from AMK and the leak stopped.

It's only after this that the noise vibration at certain revs began to happen. However, although I'm certain that this must be linked to the fitting / refitting of the shafts by garage A and B, there's no way of proving for sure who broke the camel's back, and I don't really want to waste time going down that road.

I took it back to garage B who inspected all the engine mounts (all ok). They said that if the noise was from the shafts it would improve in time. If it was from the gearbox, it would get worse. It hasn't got better, but it's been difficult to select gears over the last couple of weeks, so I wanted to know where things stand so took it back to garage B to do a proper test of the gearbox to pin the problem down, as well as tighten the clutch up to try and sort out the selection problems. They've done this, which has sorted the selection problem (clutch now bites high though) and diagnosed the diff bearings in the box as being the reason for the noise/vibration. Cost me £96 for the privilege!!!

Not sure that I would take it back to them to have the job done(they've had enough business from me), but if I do decide to have it repaired I would rather use my old box as the basis rather thsn something off a scrapper - you simply don't know whether you're buying trouble, particularly if it's come of some 100k+mile old knack.

Despite all this, I still feel that something got damaged when those shafts were installed, hence the unusual problem affecting the car.

[Peter.N.]

I wouldn't have thought you could do a lot of damage fitting drive shafts. Is the noise at a particular engine speed or road speed and what sort of noise is it?

Peter

[Spaces]

How much gear oil was lost, or how long/how many miles did you leave the leak before sorting? Were you already a customer at garage A or did you choose them because they quoted you a low price?

I think the lesson for all to learn from this is to find a good independent garage - ideally a specialist although a ZX is simple enough - and stick with them if you receive good service. Developing a good relationship with a workshop is worth its weight in gold if you aren't mechanically able. Having said that, many aren't keen on working on such old machinery and some may even work with less care on the basis that any old car is only a stone's throw from the crusher no matter how shiny. Which is where any specialist comes into their own. Maybe now would be the time to find one, they will probably source and fit a good used gearbox for less than a general garage.

[jgra1]

have they just over adjusted the clutch ? if it was not dis-engaging before (hard to select gears) and now is is biting too early (too high), it may need to be somewhere in the middle adjustment wise? very easy to do yourself?

37K, from new, I wouldn't think you need to worry about the clutch...


where are you based?

John

[wotwot]

subscribed as I cant find follow this post !!.

[geb042]

I wouldn't have thought you could do a lot of damage fitting drive shafts. Is the noise at a particular engine speed or road speed and what sort of noise is it?

Well, either way, it just seems more than a coincidence that the problem should start when the driveshafts were fitted / refitted several times. All the engine mounts are ok, but the noise is a kind of balking noise that comes in the higher gears when tickling the car along at around 1250 revs on a level surface. Particularly noticeable when easing back slightly on the accellerator when the momentum of the car is greater than it would be with the strength of how much 'gas' I'm giving it. Noise also results in a detecting a slight vibration coming through your heel.

If you're familiar with these cars, then there's quite a distinctive baulking sound when the engine labours. It's like that, but more pronounced.

How much gear oil was lost, or how long/how many miles did you leave the leak before sorting? Were you already a customer at garage A or did you choose them because they quoted you a low price?

About 200 miles was done with the leak. About 2 to 3 drips of oil were being lost on the drive per day. I asked garage B if it was ok to drive like this and they said it would be fine, as the amounts being lost were minimal. Garage A is a cheap £25ph one man band outfit that has done some good work for me in the past. However, doubts over the no. of hours being charged and a slip up in which he forgot to tighten up a new brake caliper when I drove away, coupled with the shaft leak made me think I'd take things forward elsewhere.

I think the lesson for all to learn from this is to find a good independent garage - ideally a specialist although a ZX is simple enough - and stick with them if you receive good service. Developing a good relationship with a workshop is worth its weight in gold if you aren't mechanically able.

Couldn't agree more!

many aren't keen on working on such old machinery and some may even work with less care on the basis that any old car is only a stone's throw from the crusher no matter how shiny.

Again, you're totally right. Like it or not, any ZX or car of it's age, regardless of condition is nothing special at all to them, so they aren't careful. One of the reasons I don't think I'll be going back to garage B is that they've bent some of the rad fins whilst removing the air cleaner housing to get to the clutch cable - smacks of carelessness to me, which for £40ph labour +VAT isn't good enough really. Unfortunately, there's no Citroen specialist near me, although garage B does purport in their advertising to have expertise in Peugeot Citroen vehicles, though they are a general garage.

have they just over adjusted the clutch ? if it was not dis-engaging before (hard to select gears) and now is is biting too early (too high), it may need to be somewhere in the middle adjustment wise? very easy to do yourself? 37K, from new, I wouldn't think you need to worry about the clutch...

Clutch has been adjusted up by about 9mm on the thread. Clutch is getting worn because although it engages / disengages with no problems, the bite is now quite high up when the clutch pedal is released. As with the 'box, wouldn't have expected the clutch be showing signs of major wear at the mileage. Having said that, the car was owned by a driver who p/x'd the car for a new Megane in 2009 aged 85! I've no doubts it was driven carefully, but I've witnessed many cases of older drivers racing the clutch etc. on cars.

Based in Manchester.

[Peter.N.]

I am familier with the ZX as my wife had a td estate for some years, it now belongs to a friend of ours and I still repair it! I can't see that the high clutch biting point is a problem unless it won't fully disengage unless adjusted so, its only a five minute job to adjust the clutch cable to give you a lower bite point. I have just recently fitted a new clutch cable to our old car and although the adjustment is not exactly easy to get at with a bit of perseverence it doesn't take long.

I am not really sure what you mean by a baulking noise, do you mean the sort of snatching you get if you are driving with the revs to low?

The loss of oil I don't think is significant, if it had got that low the gearbox would have suffered long before the diff as that's in the very bottom of the box.

If it drives OK otherwise I wouldn't worry about it, I doubt that it will suddenly self destruct.

Peter

[MPV]

Look for an independent garage who's a member of the Good Garage Scheme. http://www.goodgaragescheme.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you still want to get rid of it, I'm sure there's lot's of people here who'd take it off your hands...a nice low mileage XUD9 would have no problems finding a home.

Depending on the mileage you do, it could take years before that funny noise becomes a serious problem. One of my cars has knackered diff bearings, I've driven over 1500 miles in it since the noise first started and the sound and feel hasn't got any worse. I'll run it till it falls to bits as it's got tax and MOT.

[geb042]

I am not really sure what you mean by a baulking noise, do you mean the sort of snatching you get if you are driving with the revs to low?

The noise is hard to describe. It's like a labouring noise you get when driving with the revs low in too high a gear, but also appears as a humming vibration at 1250 revs when the car is being driven along, especially in 5th gear. Noise also starts in when driving along under acceleration and then easing back on the accelerator slightly (i.e. the momentum of the car and it's speed is greater than the amount of power you are giving it - eventually it will stop when the speed of the car matches the amount of gas it's being given). Sound is like rubbing a block of wood ober a washboard.

Also can detect a knocking when stamping on/off the accelerator like when an engine mounting has gone, bit all of these are fine.

One of my cars has knackered diff bearings, I've driven over 1500 miles in it since the noise first started and the sound and feel hasn't got any worse. I'll run it till it falls to bits as it's got tax and MOT.

I've now racked up 3000 miles like this since April, mainly motorway miles at a steady 60mph and it's no worse. Are the symptoms I'm describing what you're having with your car?


I guess the elephant in the room is the clutch wear, which the adjustment takes care of for now. When this goes, the issue is then forced. As you say, it could take a long time for this to happen, so I might as well keep on running it. It'll give me more time to save up. Who knows, something else could happen before then.

The whole thing is just a blasted nuisance!

[Peter.N.]

If this vibration at 1250 rpm is in every gear it will be an engine problem rather than a gearbox one, it will be more noticable in higher gears as the engine will be pulling harder. I have had bearing noise that has continued for 10s of thousands of miles without failure - its just as you say, annoying. I have also had clutches that have lasted over 10,000 miles after they started slipping, just by driving them gently and not allowing them to slip.

Peter

[geb042]

The vibration tends to be in the higher gears (4th & 5th) rather than the lower ones.