1.9TD Poor Starting

[Xsarahdi]

The 306 has decided that it doesn't really like starting anymore. The other day (friday morning) I went to use it and it started on the first turn of the key as usual however it sounded really rough when it started and it sounded as if it was going to cut out (for the first 5 seconds or so). I also noticed some smoke blow past but didn't notice what colour. Ran fine after this with normal performance etc. Upon restarting to come home it started normally. I thought it was just due to a cold damp morning although I think I ran the glowplugs for long enough (the light had been out for a few seconds).

I went to use the car this afternoon and I let the glows run for about 8 seconds after the light went out but it only just started - but not on the first turn of the key. It was cranking for a while before it finally started and again was rough. When starting to come home this evening (6 hours after turning off) it was hard to start again although not quite as bad.

Now, what do you think it could be? The glowplugs were new last November according to the history so surely it can't be those. I don't know when the battery was done last but when I looked it (shortly after turning the car off though) the little charge indicator light on it was green (I haven't had time to test it using a multimeter yet) so it may well be the battery but lights on the dash etc looked as normal. The only other think I suppose could be air in the fuel but wouldn't this affect it during use? What do you think is most likely or is there anything else to look into?

Thanks
Mark

[Peter.N.]

Hi Mark

It certainly sounds like air ingress, what happens is that when the car is standing air leaking in will allow the fuel to drain back to the tank, to test for this try pumping the primer until its hard then try starting it, if its OK that's what the problem will be.

You can get leaks anywhere along the fuel line but particularly behind the engine where the flexible pipe joins the metal, also on the fuel filter, the primer pump itself or if its a Bosch pump the injector leak off pipes.

If the filter has not been changed recently that itself could be the problem.

Peter

[Xsarahdi]

Thanks for your reply Peter. This morning before I started the car I tested the battery with a mulimeter and it gave a reading of 12.3V and the indicator light was still green. I also tried to pump the primer bulb but it was hard. I didn't have time to do much else so I just had to try to start it. It was again hard to start (was only about 2 or 3 degrees this morning when I went off) but it got going and was fine for the rest of the drive.

So surely it can't be air ingress if the bulb was hard (and I pumped it another once or twice) and it was still reluctant to start. I'm not sure when the filter was changed but I'll look in the history folder to find out - I can't imagine it was too long ago as it has a comprehensive pack of receipts and is not down on performance. This problem has only just come on since friday so a filter would have been more gradual.

Upon starting to come home at around 17:00 it started better even after being stood there for 8-9 hours although it still didn't start normally. One thing to note was the temperature outside was much higher at around 16 degrees. This makes me thing glow plugs but they were only done last november according to receipts. Maybe cheap ones were put in or non-turbo ones?? Would that cause them to last less than a year?

Thanks
Mark

[CitroJim]

his makes me thing glow plugs but they were only done last november according to receipts. Maybe cheap ones were put in or non-turbo ones?? Would that cause them to last less than a year?

Yes, it would. Non turbo ones look identical to turbo ones but are not designed for turbo post-heating. Post heating can be in effect for a good few minutes after the engine starts and will see off non-turbo ones in no time at all.

Cheapies may well have a life expectancy of about a year...

BERU seem the best of the bunch. The type you need is the GN909. If offered GW636 throw them back as they're the non-turbo ones...

[Xsarahdi]

Thanks Jim for confirming that. The car wouldn't start this morning. I tried attaching jump leads to definately rule out the battery and it was still no go. There was plenty of white smoke whilst cranking so that would again suggest glows due to the unburnt fuel.

This afternoon I tested to see if there was a voltage to them and there was around 12volts so they are being powered. After that I ordered a set from GSF (Beru) and they will be in first thing tommorow morning. I then set about removing the old ones so it is quicker to put new ones in. Upon taking them out they were wet with fuel so definately weren't working. I tested them on a spare battery and they didn't glow.

So it was the glow plugs in the end. The old ones were Denso DG-001 so are they a well know set or are they the correct ones for the 1.9TD? If they were the right ones and a good quality then what would lead them to go in less than a year?

[CitroJim]

Ahh well it's good that the problem has been found and that the glowplugs are the culprit Clouds of white smoke is the dead giveaway as this is pure unburned fuel..

I've no knowledge of the Denso ones at all; never even knew they made them...

About the only thing that might kill good ones quickly is if the post heat function or the relay has gone and the plugs are either energised all the time or for very long, extended post heat period.

Test with a meter that the plugs stop glowing after the engine starts from cold when the coolant reaches 60 degrees. They should also cut out if the throttle is opened beyond a third, even when cold. If the coolant is below 60 they may come back on when the engine is again idling...

All in all they shouldn't glow for longer than about five minutes after the initial start...

[Peter.N.]

If you had around 12 volts on them that indicates a problem. The current consumption if they are all working is around 60 amps which will pull the supply voltage down to around 10- 11 volts so that seems to suggest that probably two or more are open circuit.

Peter

[Xsarahdi]

Ok thanks. So if the old ones were of good quality then there could be another problem causing them to have a short life.

If you had around 12 volts on them that indicates a problem. The current consumption if they are all working is around 60 amps which will pull the supply voltage down to around 10- 11 volts so that seems to suggest that probably two or more are open circuit.

I did test the voltage when I assume all of them were gone so there was probably no current drawn. The voltage was nearer 11 I suppose but I thought this would be down to the fact the battery probably suffered when trying to start this morning.

the plugs stop glowing after the engine starts from cold when the coolant reaches 60 degrees. They should also cut out if the throttle is opened beyond a third, even when cold.

Well it takes a while for the coolant to warm to this in this colder weather. Also I don't drive the car very hard (usually get around 55-60 MPG from it) so maybe I don't use more than a third throttle for quite a while. I have to drive for about 5 minutes before being able to get above 30 or 40 mph so I might not use more than a third.

When I get the new ones in I'll check the voltage around them when the engine's warmed up (or more than 1/3 throttle) to see if their still energised. Jim, you might have a point about them being on for too long as when you turn the engine off (even after being used for half an hour or more) I can hear a click like a relay clicking out. Could this be the problem or is this noise something else?

I don't want the new ones to have a shortened life.

Thanks for the help and advice. It's much appreciated.