C4 G.P grows on you

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Dippy
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C4 G.P grows on you

Post by Dippy »

After slagging off the EGS gearbox after a 15m drive , which was rather unfairly presumptious of me .

Having the use of a 1.6 HDI Grand Picasso for a week or so has made it second nature to use , and is an absolute bonus in stop - start traffic .

The gizmos are there for gizmos sakes mostly , and are mostly all duplicated on the steering wheel , bit daft really.

Quite nice to drive though and probably the most versatile vehicle I have ever used, I cannot beleive it's performance from a 1.6 litre engine , but I am out of touch with modern stuff .

It also does 50+ mpg without even trying .

Overall , very impressive . but it ought to be at only 17K miles. 8-)
Last edited by Dippy on 27 Dec 2011, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mooseshaver »

Does it have the self levelling suspension on the rear? Some GPs have spheres on the rear.
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Post by Citroenmad »

For an MPV they really are a good looking car, I also like the normal 5 seater too.

Im pleased you like the EGS box, its an aquired taste I think. I liked the similar type of box in our Peugeot, it is a doddle in traffic and there is no clutch pedal. However it does have its limitations in the fact there is no creep as you get with normal autos nor the slip/control you get with a real manual. The EGS does have a clutch and so in traffic it will wear like a manual. I used our sensodrive Peugeot a few times for my commute into a busy city centre, it really did make the experience easier. With our tight parking at home need precision and the sensodrive/EGS doesn't give it. I also got a bit tired of the slow changes, which when accelerating would give a big pause.


mooseshaver wrote:Does it have the self levelling suspension on the rear? Some GPs have spheres on the rear.
Not quite. Some C4 GPs (exclusives as standard) have air shocks on the back end which allow the rear to self level, it also gives a good ride from the back too.

I saw the most tatty recent car today, it was a 10plate C4P in silver, obviously never washed since new, the rear tyre must have had about 10 PSI and the body was scuffed, scratched and dented all over. The back of the front seats were kicked to bits by the kids and written on with crayons. You would have needed a rotavator to tidy up the inside. Totally shocking, but nothing inside appeared to be falling off despite its obvious abuse.

I can see a C4 GP replacing our C5 estate when the time comes, it would need to be an Exclusive with the self levelling rear though. Hoever the only diesel in the Exclusive is the 2.0HDi 138 (which is the one we would have anyway due to the weight it would carry) but this engine in the GP is only available with the EGS box. Might need to give one another go.
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Post by RichardW »

My parents have just bought a 5 seater with EGS. Yet to have a go in it :twisted: Looking to replace our Xsara Pic with a C4 GP next year - there are lots ex motability going through the auction at £3k < retail. Some are in the state citroenmad describes though... :roll:
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Post by Citroenmad »

Yes, at a guess I would say that one I saw was a mobility car. I may be wrong but I can't imagine many people would spend £15K+ of their own money just to trash the car.

There looks to be similar room in the C4P engine bay as there does in the C4. I think the wipers and scuttle pannel need to be removed on the C4 to gain access to the air filter, ill soon see, ive got a 1.6 HDi Coupe to service soon.

I think within the last few months/year when Citroen upped the bhp of the 2.0HDi the C4P got the 2.0HDi with a manual box. I need to check that, as thats the ones to look out for for us. A C5III is too small to replace our C5II estate, the boot is much smaller.
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Post by DickieG »

Citroenmad wrote:The EGS does have a clutch and so in traffic it will wear like a manual.

I also got a bit tired of the slow changes, which when accelerating would give a big pause.
The latter sentence suggests that if anything the clutch in an EGS box will last longer as the clutch is always engaged correctly by not being engaged too quickly to cause slip/wear, in addition to the engine revs being perfectly balanced with road speed and the gear ratio/gearbox input shaft speed. How many drivers do that? The answer is not very many from my experience of teaching already qualified drivers.
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Post by Sl4yer »

My dad got one a month or two ago (which meant I got my Activa back :D ). Its a 138HP HDi Exclusive on a 07 plate. It seemed unwieldy initially, but it's easy to reverse park with the sensors.

I don't get on with the gearbox - it's changes are just too slow, and it makes changes uncomfortable unless you're accelerating very slowly. I tend to change up manually - I like to pull away at a reasonable rate, but it then holds gears too long. It also changes down on the motorway, which can be annoying because the time it takes to change down is wasted. IMO a decent diesel has plenty of torque to accelerate in top gear at motorway speeds.

I find it is easy to hold in place on an incline by letting it slip the clutch, although that's probably why so many are failing at an early age! No need to do so though with the automatic handbrake release (which is surely a problem in waiting!).

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Post by DickieG »

Sl4yer wrote:I don't get on with the gearbox - it's changes are just too slow, and it makes changes uncomfortable unless you're accelerating very slowly. I tend to change up manually - I like to pull away at a reasonable rate, but it then holds gears too long. It also changes down on the motorway, which can be annoying because the time it takes to change down is wasted. IMO a decent diesel has plenty of torque to accelerate in top gear at motorway speeds.
I think you'll find that these gearboxes are what's called "Auto Adaptive" or what some call using "Fuzzy Logic" where the gearbox responds to how its being driven so if you are driving sedately the change up/down points are set for economy. If however that style changes to a more spirited style then it changes into a "Sports" mode after a certain period where the gear change points are altered accordingly. Of course in order to do that there will always be a delay before the change of driving style is identified.

As for changing down at motorway speeds, well I'd bet that is because the engineers discovered that it will be more economical to do so.

On the dash of the latest manual gearbox BMW's the most suitable gear for whatever speed/throttle setting you have is displayed which quite often differs from what drivers expect.
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Post by Citroenmad »

I couldnt get the sesodrive box to slip the clutch, it was either on or off, you could con it into doing it but it would catch on and cut the clutch out.

I dont use the clutch on a manual car to hold it on hills, as many do, though I would say a sensodrive gave more slip to the clutch during changes or when it was figuring out what gear to be in when setting off at walking pace without stopping etc than I would do with a manual. So I can't see clutches lasting as long.

Our old VW caravellle TDI Auto would cut out of drive when you had stopped and left your foot on the brake. However when parking close to something and using the brake it would realise this (due to constant pressing of the brake at low speeds) and keep the drive in until the brake was pressed for a longer period. It would also keep in drive when 1st was slected on the gearlever. The Sensodrive or EGS should have had a similar systen where the clutch would slip for easier parking.

It would be interesting to know how many high mileage EGS or sensordrive cars are about and what problems they have had in getting to those mileages.

As for it not engaging too quickly, it depends how fast you pull away, as it can cut the clutch it alarmingly quickly. The sensordrives have been riddled with faults including a juddering clutch. Not sure how rebust the EGS gearboxes are, probably similar.
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Post by DickieG »

As with most things the more items of machinery in a system the greater opportunity for failure, however those additional/computer controlled items do remove the biggest cause of mechanical wear/failure, the driver!

These EGS are simply a fully automatic version of my DS semi auto box which as far as I'm aware are pretty reliable.
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Post by Citroenmad »

DickieG wrote:however those additional/computer controlled items do remove the biggest cause of mechanical wear/failure, the driver!
Very true, and the clutch is something the driver has the most effect on wearing out. Far too many people ride clutches, its not its intended purpose to keep the car still or crawling at an inch a minute but its often used like that. For that reason the EGS and the other automated manuals are a good idea, most of the control of a manual but without the clutch pedal.
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Post by daviemck2006 »

I'm wondering on the idea of a c4P with 2.0hdi and egs to replace the c5 when the time comes (next year at least) The car would be heavy enough for the caravan, engine plenty of power and torque but a bit worried about how the gearbox would cope. I've towed with a full auto before and it was fine. Cant find out much info about them at all for towing. Probably will go to auction for ti and get an ex motabiliy one, done that trick a few times and never got a bad one that way, YET!!!!!
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Post by RichardW »

Had a look on service.citroen. Seems to use the same clutch and box as the manual, just with a hydrualic control / actuator block bolted on it. Amsuingly there is an accumualtor on the control block that bears an uncanny resemblance to the ones we all know and love :lol:

Towing weight for the 2.0HDi looks to be 1500 kg, whereas the the 1.6 HDi only manages 1180kg. 2.0 HDi bit rare ex-motability at auction. most are 1.6 HDi VTR / +
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Post by Dippy »

My BIL owner retuns home today , but before He departed I possibly posed him all of the above questions , and a few more besides.

As ever Seeing + Doing is believing , so He demonstrated the car as I tried to catch Him & the EGS out .

but , since He is a Well Experienced , Competent and mechanically Sypathetic driver , that can often be difficult :wink:

I don't have the hanbook to hand , but have read it once and would recommend reading 20 + times , especially about the EGS. before the vehicle is accused of malfunction .

This is not an exhaustive account of what the Car is capable of , more like my limited experience of it , this C4 Pic is far cleverer and much sharper than me .....

Full Auto Mode :-

The gearchange if left to it's own devices *appears to change slowly compared to a manual or some T.Q auto's ( but certainly not all ) , and lurches a little between changes IF you maintain a fixed throttle .

You very quickly learn to " feel " when the box is about to upchange and backing off the gas pedal a smidgeon produces somewhat quicker and smoother change with no lurching .

* It is still on a par with my manual Synergie latency wise .

Manual Mode :-

The flappy paddles can be usefully employed to produce a very rapid lurchless change , again backing the gas off slightly as you click the paddles .

You can make it Hold any gear you wish , for as long as you wish on both up & down shifts ( very useful) . but it will go to the rev limiter if you so desire not to change .

It also sorts itself out when slowing / stopping and will then proceed in the correct gear

i.e if you come to stop in 6th , it sorts out the right gear to pull away again , usually 1st.

In either mode there is little or no clutch slip , it's better than me on a good day with a manual ( bear in mind my Syn' is still on her original clutch)

Given the engines power/torque from seemingly no - revs , regardless of what figures are quoted on paper ? it can - and will take off like a Scalded Cat unless a more genteel press of the Loud pedal is employed :shock:

This can alarm the boy - racers at the traffic light G.P , by the time they stop scratching their nadgers and cruching through their knackered synchro's , the Cit. is well down the lane , by now 3rd gear having changed up on flappies - quicker than they can burst a Zit or get out of 2nd.

Where my Inexperience lets me down is :-

When at a halt the handbrake will deploy itself in certain circumstances ( depending on how the car is set up in the Menu) please read handbook ! I don't have it here.

Regardless of this , if you hold the car on the footbrake - when released the vehicle remains static for a couple of seconds BUT can then freely roll until either the Loud pedal is depressed or the brake - again . My old grey matter still " thinks" cos' there ain't a clutch pedal , that there is some ATF sloshing round - providing some hold . there is NOT :oops:

This leads me into a panic - two pedal - both feet squaredance when parking !

The vehicles owner suffers no such issues since - He has read the gubbings in the book , and took heed of it ! but probably more importantly - Experience.

" Familiararity breeds contempt " sayeth some wise old sage , and a bit of forethought is req'd with this box - for me at any rate . Again No probs for the owner.

...................................................................................
Slightly Digressing .

Many, Many moons ago - I was road testing a 911 - Sportomatic . whilst idling at the traffic lights I had my foot off the gas , and hand resting on the gearknob . Lots of you will be in front of me and grinning by now ?

Green to Go - I pushed the stick into first , gave it some juice and - Nothing ? I sat blipping the gas ( flat sixes rev mega - rapidly ) watching the revs go up and down but still no drive ?

I then took my hand Off the gear knob ( forgetting the internal microswitch which operated a servo to disconnect the clutch )

F%$&^%$^£(*&%$ ing ell' :shock: it were off like Barks's Bull , it pinned me to the seat back and crapping myself I narrowly avoided an accident, putting it mildly . Not Cool .

For those fortunate well heeled owners who survived early seventies 911's , I bet they would give their eye - teeth to own one again ! 8-)
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Post by DickieG »

As my job is driver tuition I never cease to be amazed or more honestly frustrated by the ignorance of a lot of people when it comes to driving a car that uses a different method for a particular purpose, very few can be bothered to read the handbook to fully understand and learn how to use and get the best out of whatever the "different" item is resulting in them not understanding the correct method or what advantages are there to be enjoyed. Invariably the result is that they dismiss the item describing it as rubbish (or more often less politely) when in fact they are simply ignorant fools on the subject. I lost count many years ago of how many times I've said "RTFHB" :lol: Good to see you've taken the time to read up and understand more about these gearboxes Dippy.
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