What makes a car safe?

[Spaces]

Prompted by another thread which surprised me with its entrenched thinking - surprised all the more by the fact this is a forum for Citroen owners - I began thinking on modern cars and their increased levels of safety equipment. It is difficult not to argue that good quality tyres increase safety no end over cheap brands, but are airbags more important for your safety, in your opinion? Or is it the comfort and braking ability of a big Citroen. I miss Diravi in my everyday car, poor steering can tire a driver hugely over a distance (even in the city diravi is far better) but as with most cars today, PSAs are clinicked and tailored to what the majority think is best for them.

Although I would love to vote for quality tyres as being the single biggest improvement to safety you can make, the hydraulics - even on poor quality tyres - lend a comfort which keeps a driver alert on a longer journey, grip the road better and allow superb braking, even when applied to a simple, cheap suspension layout with MacPherson struts and rubber bushes everywhere. Personally I dislike the Peugeot chassis with the associated lively handling compared with the stability of a CX - it's great in a warm, dry climate but on a cold, damp November night in Britian, on an unknown road, it can be as detrimental to swift progress as a BMW. Like most other mass-produced cars I find it's designed to flatter the driver and work best at low to medium speeds on decent surfaces, but since empty roads are a rarity in much of England perhaps this matter little for most God-fearing drivers?

It would be interesting to run a similar poll entitled "which is the single biggest retrograde step made by Citroen which has negatively affected safety?" but I fear this may be treading on too many people's toes...

[handyman]

I think you missed out the most obvious safety improvement condition for any car.

Lock away in the garage with the key out of the ignition!

H

[Toby_HDi]

Personally, the biggest improvement you can make to safety is one not listed. It is also one that just hasn't really been thought about in this country in my eyes.

Driver Education.

Cars today are capable of so many things, the one thing that lets them down is the bit sat behind the steering wheel. The majority of accidents are down to pilot error - same as the aviation industry

[handyman]

Whoa there Toby, thats a bit of a sweeping statement about the aviation industry!

There is a lot more to go wrong mechanically in an aircraft, along with a whole spectrum of adverse weather conditions, than the average car driver could even dream about in a month of Sundays.

The average car driver is pretty clueless about what goes on outside their tinbox on wheels, and that is usually only in two dimensions, forwards and backwards and side to side.

Driver training is really basic and once the test is passed you're on your own, until you get too old or you're enough of a numpty to lose your licence.

Pilots have a much higher standard of training, even for a PPL, with continuous assessments and retraining to ensure you are competent and capable. There is even a bit of psychology thrown in to ensure pilots have the right apptitude to fly. If you want to fly in a different aircraft, you have to be assessed to achieve a rating for that type. Its even tougher for the commercial mob.

Witness two car drivers I saw last week. One applying make-up by holding the steering wheel and compact mirror with one hand while applying make-up with the other, all on a busy 60 mph A road. I wont say anything about the gender of said driver, I'll let you guess. The other numpty was drinking out of a large cup of coffee, finishing the dregs, so his vision was totally obscured and tailgating the car in front, again in a fast moving traffic flow.

The only saving grace was that I was driving in the opposite direction.

On behalf of all pilots, I'll accept your apologies.

H

[Toby_HDi]

Handyman,

Very true, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek but I do recall that the majority of accidents ARE put down to pilot error, even though there are fewer air accidents than those involving cars. Doesn't take a tool of a pilot either, they are still human and make mistakes just like the rest of us.

As you rightly say though, there are many more numpties on the roads than in the air. Training for car drivers is minimal though I think the problem lies in that many people see driving as a chore, rather than something to be enjoyed.

[Peter.N.]

Concentration.

[Deanxm]

All the above safety features have not made cars safer at all, they just detach the driver from the car and thus reduce the drivers ability in my view, the driver is the key inpreventing accidents and fatalities not brake gimmicks and air bags

D

[DickieG]

But when things do go wrong for whatever reason you'll be happy not having any of them fitted to your car

The common thought on road safety is that the best way to improve the collision rate would be to fit a bayonet to the steering wheel pointing towards the driver, anyone fancy that?

I'll take airbags etc etc.

What's all this on the poll about "Heavy Monocoque shell? Would you prefer to have a light wobbly one as in a DS or AX. If you do I'll dig out a few photo's of DS's involved in collisions which may change your thoughts on the benefits of having one.

[Peter.N.]

I think the modern collapsable bodyshell is responsible for a huge reduction in deaths/casualities. My wife tested it on an XM

Peter

[handyman]

Toby, as a slight digression from this very important topic for a Saturday evening, the CAA is well known in its bias to blame many if not all air accidents on pilots, whether at fault or not. Usually, if the accident was fatal, the pilots cannot contradict an investigation's findings.

It is a way for the industry to maintain a whiter than white appearance for airworthiness, given we all like to fly away for our holidays in what we think are perfectly safe aircraft. I usually reserve my judgement on some of the faults I have seen on passenger aircraft.

As for numpty car drivers, we should all start on bicycles, so we understand how vulnerable we are without the benefit of a tin box around us. We should treat driving as a privilege, not a right.

Compare the difference in attitude of professional drivers as opposed to drivers using cars as a means to an end. Do not include high mileage reps as professional drivers, as they can be some of the worst transgressors.

Je reste ma valise!

Homme de mains.

[Deanxm]

But when things do go wrong for whatever reason you'll be happy not having any of them fitted to your car Laughing

Yep, im not the sort of person who regrets things that are done, if i put a vehicle into a feild on its back for instance i wouldnt be thinking oh if only i had esp/abs/ebd/tc, i would think why was a driving like a tit!

The greatest safety feature is preventing the accident in the first place in my opinion, teaching people how to drive properly is one way but thats a bit of a dream really, driver training has not worked on any of our traffic cops afterall but maybe thats because each one believe that because they are trained professionals they are infallible?

The sad truth of the matter is that people will always be killed on the roads, either due to mistakes made by themselves or others.

To really take this way off topic i was looking at some road death stats for the last 10 years for my area, it would seem the biggest age group that suffer fatalities on the road are the 60+ age group when averaged out over the last decade...............the 30 to 59 agegroup close behind, of course the stats have been fiddled to show whatever they wanted them to show but it goes to show that experience doesnt really count for much in the world of driver deaths now that has surprised me

D

[Spaces]

Dickie, airbags are ok in the typical accident where you come to a halt and that's it, but a competent driver may be involved in a multiple impact crash where his view/eyesight is knocked out after the first knock and so cannot steer out of more trouble. And the second or third impact may well be worse than the first. There is also the issue that they can create such fat pillars they begin to obstruct your view out of the car more.

Ah, the old 'heavy is better' Volvo driver argument. The more mass you carry, the more energy has to be absorbed in an impact. Clever design and mass which is as minimal as can be would be my choice. The monocoque was chosen for its lightweight, but Citroen had rejected it before most had even tried it on the grounds that to make it sufficiently strong, it became rather overweight with all the associated problems, not least crash behaviour. An eggshell is a superb bit of engineering, but with 5 large doors and window holes it takes some very clever CAD to make any good (in which process it gains excess mass). But it is still cheap to make, hence its proliferation.

The secret which all manufacturers have learnt with well-publicised crash investigation is that it's air space between you and the point-of-impact which counts for a LOT. Hence ever-larger cars and A pillars which are in the middle distance.

Of course, while all the money is spent on what happens when you have a crash, it makes much more sense to avoid one in the first place. It's just easier to sell the former to the public. And easier to engineer. Manufacturers like Saab and Citroen used to excell at primary safety - carefully analysing driver behaviour and responses as well as their vehicles' - as well as secondary, when Ford and Peugeot hadn't even begun to consider either.

Today it is assumed we are all idiots and cars are engineered to suit the lowest common denominator. I'm pleased most people who have replied to this recognise it is driver behaviour and state of mind which is the important bit.

[Toby_HDi]

Handyman, I wasn't aware the CAA is regarded that lowly. I also thought that it was down to the AAIB to investigate accidents, is this a branch of the CAA?

As you can tell I am just an enthusiast with an interest in aviation and meant no offence at all. I was merely commenting on what I have found in my general interest in the subject, be that correct or not.

As for your comment on bicycles - quite right! This is where I started and it does make you aware. That is not to say that cyclists don't do silly things though! Some of them do seem to think they are indestructible.

....i was looking at some road death stats for the last 10 years for my area, it would seem the biggest age group that suffer fatalities on the road are the 60+ age group when averaged out over the last decade.............

Isn't that just a reflection of the demographics on the Island Dean? Certainly when I was over there on my secondment it seemed full of doddery old drivers (affectionately known as 'coffin dodgers') unaware of what was going on around them.

[Rhothgar]

Prompted by another thread which surprised me with its entrenched thinking

Really? If only you had seen my logical comments to 'that' thread. I dissected it within 4 replies and make a mockery of the OP's thinking. Totally illogical. Read it through word for word and he makes NO sense.

It would be interesting to run a similar poll entitled "which is the single biggest retrograde step made by Citroën which has negatively affected safety?" but I fear this may be treading on too many people's toes...

You think this is airbags? I'd love to know. Try high pressure fluid system common to brakes, steering and suspension. Great on a new car but it's a potential accident waiting to happen on an older uncared-for car.

Funny how the poll is showing airbags to be the most popular so far so as far an 'entrenched' thinking goes, what more would you like to say on the subject?

Tyres, ABS and elements which require an active intervention are not necessarily the best safety features. Time and time again, passive elements like airbags are always going to be number one. It doesn't matter ONE iota that they form part of the MOT test - that's irrelevant!

If you don't see that you are about to be blind-sided by an HGV out of control on a long, steep descent, brakes or tyres are not really going to help. An airbag might though.

I'm also with DickieG on this one. The standard of driving on Britain's roads is in general atrocious. I do not know what the facts are but I imagine a lack of observation is the main factor in the poor standard of driving. Without information (through observation) then we cannot act on that information we do not see.

Some see more than others!



[/quote]

[Deanxm]

The standard of driving on Britain's roads is in general atrocious

You have never been to India then

D