NA 1.9 XUD with a Lucas DPC (xud 101 type) Not a VP37

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bxman
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NA 1.9 XUD with a Lucas DPC (xud 101 type) Not a VP37

Post by bxman »

Urgent advise needed, having recently fitted the engine that has been resting for 3 or 4 years it came to life and starts instantly however gives the impression of fuel starvation.
I have replaced fuel filter with no improvement .
I have checked and there is no restriction in the supply to pump.
But very little flow on the tank return, with the priming pump or with the engine running

Is there a spring or a diaphragm in there that fails ?

The fuel shut off should not affect it but I have changed it anyway.
again with no improvement
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by bxman on 17 Jun 2011, 21:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by spider »

Does it actually run then ?

Perhaps some old fuel has gummed up the return pipes / outlet or internally although I'd expect it to not run for long like that before pressure forced a seal out of the pump I think
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Post by jgra1 »

I know on the bosch pump there is a valve in the return union at the pump..

mine appeared to be blocked last week
I coud not take it apart but had a spare...
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Post by bxman »

Thanks .
The car is in service on the road down on power, but drivable.

and

The fuel bleed back is poor even with a plastic pipe straight into a milk bottle .
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Post by citronut »

there are one way valves in the feed and return banjo union bolts at the pump, maybe after being layed up so long they are sticking,


also if it has the filter with primer pump on top they do have a diaphram that perish's/fails, but this usualy causes very hard starting, as it lets loads of air into the system,


regards malcolm
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Post by bxman »

Thanks malcolm

I am no longer convinced that it is a VP37 type as that is a Bosch type

It is the same as that illustrated in photo #15
at
http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=213325

I have removed and checked both the in and out banjo unions and nothing appears amiss.

It was odd when I first hand primed the system there was not the usual
feel and it was very difficult to purge the air when I did change the filter.

There can not be anything wrong with the timing as it starts instantly.

the engine came from VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].
sadly I have not had access to service Citroen for a couple of years but that ought to confirm pump type .

best wishes Patrick
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Post by citronut »

well useing that chassis No. it gives options for both Roto Diesel and Bosch,

also i cant find photo No. 15 in your link,


regards malcolm
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Post by CitroJim »

That's a Lucas DPC :D

Common problem on these pumps if they've been left for a few years full of diesel is that the diesel goes 'gummy' and this gums up the metering needle resuting in exactly the symptoms you see.

Repair is easy enough. Slip off the lid, remove fully the sprung link between the throttle lever and the metering needle bellcrank. This will necessitate bending back the tab washer on the valve shround and remobing an 8mm bolt.

Carefully lift out the metering needle, clean it and reassemble ensuring the metering needle is very free to move in its travel.

Bleeding a Lucas DPC on the primer bulb MUST be carried out with the ignition on to open the stop solenoid. The DPC is a 'closed' design, unlike the Bosch VP20 witch can be bled with the stop solenoid closed.

As far as I know the Bosch VP37 pump was only used buy PSA on the XM 2.5TD engine.
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Post by bxman »

Brilliant thanks both.
re link :
apologies my mistake should have said photo on post no 15.
surprised the specs are not specific, however most grateful for the effort

Jim
you make it sound so easy just hope it works out.

I think maybe I will practice on an old one first

Hope to confirm your diagnosis before W/E

incidentally are the needles interchangeable ?

cheers Patrick
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Post by CitroJim »

I don't know for sure if the needles are swappanble Patrick... I'd think they are..

However, to help, I'll post up an expoded diagram of a DPC when I get home and that'll help you visualise the job...

It really not that bad a job... Honest!
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Post by CitroJim »

Patrick,

Here's a cutaway diagram of the pump.

The metering needle is item 7.

The pump lid is easily removed after removing the fuel pipes and the throttle lever. The cold start lever can stay put.

Remove the four lid screws and then gently tease the lid up whilst pushing down on the throttle spindle.

The body of the pump will be full of fuel. Be very careful not to drop any dirt inside.

The metering needle is under a shroud secured to the pump body by a small bolt.
Jim

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Post by bxman »

Instructions first class thanks Jim



Metering needle was clean and free as a whistle.
The fuel gushed through without the needle in place

SADLY I now cannot get it bleed properly/possibly. totally confused .

It fires instantly runs for a second and dies only to fire again as soon as I turn the key again.
It did this for quite a while when I changed the filter but it eventually picked up ran so you could at least drive about.

Have checked the voltage on the shut off valve and that remains constant,

The car was originally fitted with the LP turbo with a Bosch pump.
which was so tired that it was not worth refitting when the clutch went home.

Of the 3 wires going to the injection pump 2 were connected together and the single one went to the shut off valve .
both ring terminals have voltage on then.
What did the pair feed on that pump? and as there is a "timing solenoid " on the pump I am using should that be powered by that second wire ?

I have not managed to get the rev counter working yet could that possibly have any effect.
I have not been able to find wiring diagrams that cover the rev counter circuit or the diesel engine wires .
Sorry to pose so many more questions ,
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Post by citronut »

sounds worse than before you opend the pump, so i would think its something you have or havent done on reassembling,

or refitted something in the wrong place/way,


regards malcolm
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Post by bxman »

Good morning malcolm

I have been doing that constantly but it was a very simple job once I had the cover off. a single 8mm a/f bolt with a locking washer retaining the shroud and the metering needle simply lifts out after releasing a type of Shepards crook type of link.
thanks Patrick.
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Post by bxman »

Pleased to say that I have now got it running again although still far from right.

It is something to do with the fuel not correctly passing through the pump.
Regardless of the position of the shut-off valve there is minimal bleed through of fuel.
Again even with the engine running there is next to nothing passing back to the tank.
On occasions there is "kangaroo petrol " type injection and running mainly in second gear.

I have consulted an professional who thought it was something simple but that it might take him 2 hours to find.
He said that you had to force the fuel through through the high pressure part of the pump before it got to the upper sections.
But normally it is no great problem bleeding a system with the priming pump there must be an adequate passage for the air to escape into the upper chamber and hence back to the tank.

I am reluctant but could I put an air line onto the pump inlet connection?

Is there a danger I would blow out some seals as I mentioned with the metering needle removed there was a healthy flow of diesel into the upper chamber.
Does anyone know how or where it transfers through?

I have resolved some of the wiring queries the timing solenoid is feed from the shut-off valve supply and I think is earthed through a device controlled by the "waxstat"
On the Bosch pump (VE R 335-2 ) the double wire goes to a small device low down on the pump that has a small pipe feeding down from higher up somewhat like a distributor vacuum feed pipe.
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