Xantia-Steering rack refitting

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NewcastleFalcon
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Xantia-Steering rack refitting

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Just a reversal of dismantling i guess :)
Steering rack 1 with mot "leak"
Image
Steering rack 2 from now departed spares xantia
Image

I can't see anything noticably different about the top seals of these racks. Both racks work well turned with mole grips on the pinion.

Nothing is under pressure of course but I am beginning to think that the original "leak" was not from the pinion. The seal is not hard and looks intact as far as I can see. The return pipe union did undo very easily and I undid it by hand after the initial very easy turn of the wrench-maybe this was the source of the leak.

I think my safest bet bearing in mind that rack replacement and removal is such a pain, is probably to install rack 2 from my 135,000 mile car wich had passed its MOT only a couple of weeks before the winter clutch job SORN-ed it for 5 years.

Any tips for installation? Bigger piece of plywood for a start and don't do it in a thunderstorm :lol:. That heat shield looks awkward and fiddly , tempting but probably best not to omit it on reinstallation I guess.

Thanks

Neil
andmcit
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Unread post by andmcit »

Hi Neil,

If I recall correctly I managed to fit the rack back into place with the
heat shield on and still managed to get the unions reconnected without
much big hassles. Have you fished out the pair of big round washers that
the rack sits on too as they're easily missed. A dab of grease will also have
more chance of holding in the square captive nuts for the big pair of
fastening bolts.

I found the top pinion leaked on mine and wasn't going to chance fannying
about with replacement seals so just swapped the lot for a known good one.
The feel of the steering is so fundamental to how the whole car works for
you that this really would spoil the car for me if there was any coarseness
in a replacement so you're right to use a known good one; I don't believe
the miles will be a big issue. Now's your opportunity of course to very
carefully check out the nearside rack gaitor to see if it needs renewal as
it is certainly a real git to renew in place. I'd even contemplate having a
pro old-school garage renew them if you don't fancy the spiggot removal
yourself.

The only other thing I recall on mine was the coloured nylon collar being a
bit fiddly to get into place when offering up the swivel clamp off the column.

Fingers crossed for dry warm weather for you and us all!!
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NewcastleFalcon
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Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Thanks Andrew

Even though its a bit rustier, I think I will put on the rack I removed from the spares car. The "arms" of this rack support themselves much better than the arms on the other one. These fairly noticably flop which may indicate the inner ball joints on the arms are not as good as they should be. Gaitors both sides are intact.

regards Neil
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KennyW
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Unread post by KennyW »

Hi Neil,

I agree with Andmcit just change the complete rack, the steering pinion is a real pain to DIY as I found out myself.

Even if the steering pinion top seal doesn't look bad, if the other seals within the S.P. are gone, it will cuase the SP to be out of alignment hence the leak.

One you have done this once it does get easier to do again as you know the pitfalls :wink:

I can't add anything else to Andmcit's reply.

Apart for avoid doing in snow :lol:

Kenny
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NewcastleFalcon
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Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Thanks for the replies

The steering rack is now on. The awkward bits?

Getting the pinion pinch bolt through the holes

---couple of hours here! Despite the holes being lined up with a 6mm allen key poked through the bolt just would not fiddle through. Had to remove the trapped nut in the end but it just wouldnt push through. In the end I think it went in because I pulled down on the UJ as much as I could with the left hand and with about a 2mm backlift with a small hammer managed to tap it through.

Getting the wishbone back on at the anti-roll bar end.

---the anti roll bar just gets in the way as you try to slip in the top and bottom bits of the left hand mounting onto the subframe.

Its all back together and working but as far as the perfect job goes ie steering wheel centered, same threads showing at track rod ends with the wheels in the straight ahead position...... not quite.

I dont want to volunteer to remove that pinch bolt in a hurry though to put this right :)

Thanks Neil
andmcit
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Unread post by andmcit »

Well done getting it all back and running!

Thinking about it, the stops at the ends of the rack effectively determine the
steering movement so it's adjusted even via the column and the position of
the steering wheel so the only thing left out of alignment is the trigger for
the steering wheel's cancelling indicators if you leave it as is.

Aligning the steering wheel isn't a bad job but you do need to get the
column collar that holds the x2 stalks in the correct orientation too to
trigger correctly with the steering wheel - it's be a while but IIRC it
does just swivel around the column without any problems. I've got one
handy which I should be able to check out to confirm but either way
it's worth sorting to get the wheel right.

I would seriously recommend getting the tracking checked out asap mind.
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NewcastleFalcon
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Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Andrew

Thought about starting a new thread on DIY wheel alignment after your advice to get the tracking checked. I felt sure that there would be some innovative ideas on how to DIY with cheap homemade apparatus.

A quick search on the forum though and found Peter N's contribution from this thread which looks good to me
Peter N
I use a length of conduit tube with a threaded rod slid into it and adjust the tracking myself. If one extremity of the setting is 'parrallel' , adjust the length of the rod untill it just touches the inside of the tyres at wheel rim level at the front, then transfer it to the back, its quite easy to feel if the distance is the same, takes about five minutes. If it needs adjusting, alter the length of the side that will bring the steering wheel to straight ahead, if it already is, adjust each track rod by the same ammount.

If you look at the spec you will find that paralell is within tolerance, but its quite easy to adjust the the required tow in/out using this method. I have been doing it this way for around 30 years and and getting on for 1,000,000 miles and my tyres always wear evenly.
I have found that adjustable clothes props from Wilkinsons can also be used in this context from the motoring discussion boards on "Honest John"

Thanks

Neil
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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Xantia-Steering rack refitting

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

I need to resurrect this particular topic, because I haven't managed to crack the set up of the replacement rack/tracking/centering of the steering wheel.

Everything is connected, and the current set-up is.

Wheels considerably toe-in.
Steering Wheel probably about 1/8th to 1/4 off horizontal with wheels pointing straight ahead
(if the steering wheel had a horizonal centre bar the direction would be top-left to bottom right (ie \ ) in terms of "outness")

To achieve parallel wheels I feel that the track rod is going to have to be screwed virtually completely into the track rod end each side. I am just wondering if I have the wrong length track rod ends-they are both new. Like I say there isnt going to be much exposed thread either side, and even then with the rods/ends at their shortest I have a feeling that the wheels are still going to be toe-in. (I haven't tried this yet). The rack which was previously on had exposed threads of about 10mm or 7-8 threads each side.

I am happy to go back to first principles here. These you tube videos seem to bring it down to basics and I found them very useful, but todays activity has not achieved the result I was wanting.

Centring the Steering
Adjusting Toe in/out

I am happy to keep it simple and get it roughly right and try to achieve parallel alignment as evidenced by a measuring pole showing the same measurements at the front of the inside rim/ back of the inside rim.

There is still a little bit of trial and error to go, and maybe the track rod ends need comparing in length with what was on before, but if anyone has anything to add I would be grateful.

kind regards

Neil
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myglaren
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Re: Xantia-Steering rack refitting

Unread post by myglaren »

This thread has a lot of relevant information on setting the tracking.
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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Xantia-Steering rack refitting

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Thanks Steve

I have followed that thread with interest, and it has a lot of good info and precision on it.
I really just want to get it set up somewhere in the ball park of being right, but today activity didn't quite hit the mark.

I do suspect the track rod ends are not quite right. I need to shorten the tie rod/trackrod end length each side but there seems to be very little spare thread to play with.

regards

Neil
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia-Steering rack refitting

Unread post by Mandrake »

I can't really see how the track rod ends could be wrong, (where did you buy them ?) as there are only two kinds used on Xantia's, a small threaded version for most Xantia's and a large threaded version for some large engined models like the V6, and they're not interchangeable.

The ones I fitted to my V6 are Lemforder brand supplied from carparts4less.co.uk:

http://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/c/C ... c01&000349" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(They also have the smaller threaded version)

From memory there are about 5 threads exposed on each track rod end with the correct wheel alignment, which means over 80% of the thread is hidden within the track rod shaft.

How exactly are you determining that they are currently toeing in ? It's very easy to get sucked in by optical illusions when trying to judge it by eye. I was convinced mine were toeing in before I built the laser gauge shown in the linked thread, but much to my surprise it measured spot on at 1.5mm toe out. (0-3mm toe out is acceptable)

I don't think its possible to judge by eye even approximately, nor with a measuring tape, you're really going to have to measure it using a technique like the laser one from the linked thread - there is no "quick and rough" method of checking it, because most DIY methods will have a margin of error 10x greater than the actual desired toe out. (Trust me, I've tried a few other ways and none of them are remotely as accurate or repeatable as the laser method described by thorter, which is pure genius in its simplicity and accuracy)

Another thing to keep in mind is that it doesn't take much adjustment of the threads to effect a large change in toe out. A single turn of the thread on one side is a change in toe out of 4mm, so a single turn on both sides together is a 8mm change - a huge amount compared to the desired 1.5mm toe out. One turn on each side is enough to swing from massive toe in to massive toe out.

The only problem with thorters method is that while it measures the toe out very accurately it can't determine the absolute steering centring - this you'll have to do by driving on flat level road and checking the steering wheel for centring.

Since you've had the steering rack out its possible that the mounting position is not exactly right, or that the steering wheel is not correctly aligned relative to the pinion. I would probably start by very carefully equalising the number of thread turns visible on each track rod end, check the steering wheel centring by driving on flat level ground, then if its more than about 20 degrees out remove the steering wheel (carefully, watch out for air bag connectors, check relevant threads in the forum) and reposition it on the spline to get it as close as possible to aligned when going straight ahead.

Then adjust the toe out using thorters method (apart from a couple of cheap laser pointers everything else can be made from scraps) then take it for another drive - if the centering is just a few degrees off make a very small change to each track rod end - 1/8th turn shorter on one side, 1/8th turn longer on the other etc until the steering is dead ahead driving on flat level ground then double check the toe out is still correct.

This assumes left and right tyre pressures are balanced, the test road is level, and front tyre wear is even.
Simon

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NewcastleFalcon
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Re: Xantia-Steering rack refitting

Unread post by NewcastleFalcon »

Thanks for the reply Simon

My original post on this topic was May 2011 but the track rod ends would have been either Eurocarparts, GSF, or my local motorparts shop who probably get them from the above two in any case. It looks unlikely from what you say that I have the wrong ones. I need to have a good go at it on another sunny day armed with some of your good advice. I admittedly roughly assessed the toe-in/toe out with the aid of a metal tube with threaded ends adjusted to the span between the inner wheel rims at the front, and observing that the same tube was about 1/2 inch short of touching the inner rim at the back.

Your points re the magnitude of the adjustment of a single turn of the track rod into or out of the track rod end will give me a bit more confidence that the parallel/toe-out is achievable.

As for the tyres/pressures etc in all honesty...not great.....pressures/tread etc ok but it has been largely standing for a year so the tyres may not be as round as they once were.

I think I would have tried to centre the rack/pinion when I refitted it but I found the pinion pinch bolt such a PITA to refit it maybe ended up being out, creating my off centre steering wheel position.

Given a nice sunny day, maybe I should redo this bit, and check the mounting of the rack at the same time, get the steering wheel centralised, and go from there.


kind regards

Neil
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