Hello to everyone!
I tried to clean the filters in LHM tank without success today. I couldn't release the fluid hoses from their support at the side of the reservoir. Acctualy, I was affraid not to use more force on deattaching them from support. Anyhow, I've succeded to lift the centre section of the reservoir for couple of cm. Having the centre section in such a position I've seen that upper part of filter is pretty clean. After that decided not to go for cleaning the filters.
My second job for today was to check out what part of hyd. system was seriously returning the LHM in reservoir last couple of weeks.
There are 7 hoses that comes into the top of reservoir. 2 are thick ones and they come from HP and FDW (I suspect). I did not touched them. Besides them there are 5 more. Out of those 5, 2 are very thin and do not have clips at the end of hoses. Deattached them easily and noticed that there is almost no return of LHM through them (car in normal high, leveled and hand brake on). There were 3 more to check. Not very good position to deattach those 3. I went for middle hose first. Take off the clip, put the hose in coca cola bottle, turned on the ignition and notice small dripping drp by drop). On the Croatian Cit. forum I was suggested or informed that returning of LHM through one hose more than 3 ml/min suggests failure or not so good condition of appropriate part in system (thanks one more time Alexx). Turned off the engine, attached middle hose back to its place with new clip and went for hose that is the closest to driver cabine or windshield. Repeated the same procedure (had small problems with apparting of original clip), put end of hose in coca cola bottle, turned on the engine and BOY WHAT A SCENE! LHM WAS FLOWING into the bottle! I turned off the enginge immediately! During these 3 or 4 seconds 3 or 4 decilitres of LHM came into the bottle. After that I've attached the hose with new clip back to reservoire and did not want to check the left one. Put everything back in order (fortunately), put that LHM back in tank (it was dark green - flushing the system ASAP, isn't it?).
The doseur was replaced on 9th of June this year. Everithing was fine for another 12 days. After that brakes started to behave strange, car started to sit more quickly ...
Question: that hose that returns litres of LHM in short period od time is connected to what? I hope it doesn't lead to main brake valve!
Help, help, help!!!
Xantia 1.8i from 1993, basic hydropneumatic system as it is on BXs. ORGA 6050, 5 spheres system.
Significant LHM internal leaking
Moderator: RichardW
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
How do I know if it is PAS and is it normal return of fluid?
Regulator ticks & HP making wrrrrssss in range of 7 - 20 sec when vehicle is idle, normal high, wheels in strat forward position, no persons in car.
I didn't write in previous massage that when applying brakes during driving, car usually drops couple of cm (sometimes just rear end). Car then judder (hope I use right term). Describing more, it is feeling for me as callipers are sticking and releasing the pads constantly. At the same time "klong, klong, klong" midght be heard from rear wheels!
Here is picture of reservoir!
[:)]
Regulator ticks & HP making wrrrrssss in range of 7 - 20 sec when vehicle is idle, normal high, wheels in strat forward position, no persons in car.
I didn't write in previous massage that when applying brakes during driving, car usually drops couple of cm (sometimes just rear end). Car then judder (hope I use right term). Describing more, it is feeling for me as callipers are sticking and releasing the pads constantly. At the same time "klong, klong, klong" midght be heard from rear wheels!
Here is picture of reservoir!
[:)]
Hi Akojic, The power steering on the Xantia comes direct from the HP pump. The suspension runs on a lower pressure and has a reserve backup using the accumalator. When you turn the car on, the pressure raises in the accumalator and then the car raises up, if your HP pump is getting tired, you may notice that when you start to drive the car away a lack of power steering except that is when it is warm weather eg summer. In winter the LHM thickens and need more work from the pump to circulate around the system. The rear brakes get their pressure from the rear suspension, therfore if the HP pump isnt getting a supply to the suspension system due to being tired, it will take all the pressure and divert it to the brakes, for safety's sake.
Try draining the LHM and replacing it with Hydroflush, leave it in the system for around a month, then drain the system again, clean the filters and refill with new LHM. Don't froget to bleed the brakes after though.
At a guess, I would say that the small pipes going back to the resevoir could well be overflow return pipes, low pressure.
I changed the HP pump on my car, took 45 minutes and it made a world of diffence.
Good luck
Paul
Try draining the LHM and replacing it with Hydroflush, leave it in the system for around a month, then drain the system again, clean the filters and refill with new LHM. Don't froget to bleed the brakes after though.
At a guess, I would say that the small pipes going back to the resevoir could well be overflow return pipes, low pressure.
I changed the HP pump on my car, took 45 minutes and it made a world of diffence.
Good luck
Paul
Akojic -
Your Xantia is a standard suspension '93 model - which have the EXACT same hydraulic system as the BX with PAS servosteering.
You have 7 hoses in 3 different sizes on the reservoir :
1) Largest diameter hose is the pump feed hose - don't touch ! - or the pump will loose suction.
2) Next largest diameter hose is return from FD valve (for the PAS servo), the PR & HC's - don't touch ! - as the flow here WILL be lot's of LHM - coming from FD & PR because the pump pressure is not used for anything while you test. You can not get any usefull information from this flow.
3) 5 SMALL hoses which are returns/overflows from elsewhere in the system - amongst these the overflows from suspension cylinders (!).
It's the flow from the 5 SMALL hoses that's interesting to test - because any flow here (engine idle - no actuators touched) indicates a problem. Only slow dripping is acceptable.
If you have flow in one of the 5 small hoses - it's most likely the front suspension cylinders leaking badly - could also be the brake doseur valve - but unlikely in this instance - recently replaced.
Following the track - in case of flow above - try the return hoses from the front suspension cylinders. If flow is repeated here - you know what to do [:(]
On Xantia & XM the front suspension cylinders must be replaced - only the BX cylinders may be overhauled.
WHAT IF -
- no flow was detected from the 5 small hoses [?]
In lieu of the rather fast ticking from regulator - my first try would be to replace the accumulator sphere [;)]
Your Xantia is a standard suspension '93 model - which have the EXACT same hydraulic system as the BX with PAS servosteering.
You have 7 hoses in 3 different sizes on the reservoir :
1) Largest diameter hose is the pump feed hose - don't touch ! - or the pump will loose suction.
2) Next largest diameter hose is return from FD valve (for the PAS servo), the PR & HC's - don't touch ! - as the flow here WILL be lot's of LHM - coming from FD & PR because the pump pressure is not used for anything while you test. You can not get any usefull information from this flow.
3) 5 SMALL hoses which are returns/overflows from elsewhere in the system - amongst these the overflows from suspension cylinders (!).
It's the flow from the 5 SMALL hoses that's interesting to test - because any flow here (engine idle - no actuators touched) indicates a problem. Only slow dripping is acceptable.
If you have flow in one of the 5 small hoses - it's most likely the front suspension cylinders leaking badly - could also be the brake doseur valve - but unlikely in this instance - recently replaced.
Following the track - in case of flow above - try the return hoses from the front suspension cylinders. If flow is repeated here - you know what to do [:(]
On Xantia & XM the front suspension cylinders must be replaced - only the BX cylinders may be overhauled.
WHAT IF -
- no flow was detected from the 5 small hoses [?]
In lieu of the rather fast ticking from regulator - my first try would be to replace the accumulator sphere [;)]
Anders,
This any help mate??
Alan S
suction hose :the hose bails oil out toward high Pressure pump
Operational return
Breaks valve return
Octopus: Group from Oil-pressure blocks
Octopus: Front suspension cylinders
Octopus: Air Ventilation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Octopus, Brake Valve return
Break valve return (c) and Octopus (D~F) run from Reservoir Tank toward
back from Engine-side,
This any help mate??
Alan S
suction hose :the hose bails oil out toward high Pressure pump
Operational return
Breaks valve return
Octopus: Group from Oil-pressure blocks
Octopus: Front suspension cylinders
Octopus: Air Ventilation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Octopus, Brake Valve return
Break valve return (c) and Octopus (D~F) run from Reservoir Tank toward
back from Engine-side,
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blueboy2001
- Posts: 423
- Joined: 29 Jan 2003, 04:16
- Location:
- My Cars:
Akojic - has your car covered a lot of miles?
If the car is set to the lowest suspension position and the regulator clacking continues at the same rate, does that rule out a problem with the height correctors and front struts or not?
I have the same problem, and I'm now pretty much convinced that the regulator is goosed - I have no significant flow in the hoses, the brake valve and all the spheres have been changed and the current HP pump has only been on 35,000 miles or so.
If the car is set to the lowest suspension position and the regulator clacking continues at the same rate, does that rule out a problem with the height correctors and front struts or not?
I have the same problem, and I'm now pretty much convinced that the regulator is goosed - I have no significant flow in the hoses, the brake valve and all the spheres have been changed and the current HP pump has only been on 35,000 miles or so.
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Anders, akojic estimates a return volume of some 3 to 4 deciliters in 3 to 4 seconds, so with a return flow heading for half a litre in that short space of time, would suggest to me at any rate that it couldn't come from a strut.
I doubt wether a strut return pipe would even be capable of such a high flow rate due to its small size, plus a leak of that magnitude would cause the car to drop like a brick when is hydraulic supply was cut, assuming it could even be raised in the first place.
You don't mention the return from the power steering pinion valve, this is after all the pumps idle circuit return and to me this fits in with the amount of fluid in question, as far as I am aware the only returns from the FDV are its own internal leakage return and steering over pressure return, the other three connections to it being the pump, regulator and pinion valve.
Dave
I doubt wether a strut return pipe would even be capable of such a high flow rate due to its small size, plus a leak of that magnitude would cause the car to drop like a brick when is hydraulic supply was cut, assuming it could even be raised in the first place.
You don't mention the return from the power steering pinion valve, this is after all the pumps idle circuit return and to me this fits in with the amount of fluid in question, as far as I am aware the only returns from the FDV are its own internal leakage return and steering over pressure return, the other three connections to it being the pump, regulator and pinion valve.
Dave
Dave -
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You don't mention the return from the power steering pinion valve, this is after all the pumps idle circuit return and to me this fits in with the amount of fluid ... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That would be the next largest hose at the reservoir - not one the 5 small hoses - and not meaningfull to test flow here anyway.
As I read Akojic's submission :
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... 2 are thick ones and they come from HP and FDW (I suspect). I did not touched them ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
- it's clear this large flow into the coca-cola bottle was from one of the 5 small hoses.
When things are at their worst - you'll be surprised how large a flow rate may emanate from these small hoses - without have them popped off.
However - we need some more accurate test results from Akojic to decide what may be the problem. Remember - a '93 car may have seen lot's of owners & garages mending with pipes & hoses - we can't be sure they are fitted correctly at reservoir. That's why further testing rearwards in the system's return lines are required.
It's known that the Xantia behaves strange on the brakes/pedal with problems in the system pressure - which could be either a flat accumulator sphere or a badly leaking suspension cylinder - likely on a '93 car.
As Blueboy writes - the suspension (& leakages herefrom) may be omitted by simply setting the car's height to lowest. Then a repeated test on the 5 small hoses would quickly tell if it was the suspension leaking.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You don't mention the return from the power steering pinion valve, this is after all the pumps idle circuit return and to me this fits in with the amount of fluid ... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That would be the next largest hose at the reservoir - not one the 5 small hoses - and not meaningfull to test flow here anyway.
As I read Akojic's submission :
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... 2 are thick ones and they come from HP and FDW (I suspect). I did not touched them ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
- it's clear this large flow into the coca-cola bottle was from one of the 5 small hoses.
When things are at their worst - you'll be surprised how large a flow rate may emanate from these small hoses - without have them popped off.
However - we need some more accurate test results from Akojic to decide what may be the problem. Remember - a '93 car may have seen lot's of owners & garages mending with pipes & hoses - we can't be sure they are fitted correctly at reservoir. That's why further testing rearwards in the system's return lines are required.
It's known that the Xantia behaves strange on the brakes/pedal with problems in the system pressure - which could be either a flat accumulator sphere or a badly leaking suspension cylinder - likely on a '93 car.
As Blueboy writes - the suspension (& leakages herefrom) may be omitted by simply setting the car's height to lowest. Then a repeated test on the 5 small hoses would quickly tell if it was the suspension leaking.
Thanks to everyone who answered so far!
According to numbers from dash my Xantia made over 126600 km. I'm owner since November 2000 and by that time it had arround 74000 (I hope it was true although I received car with it original invoice, service book and other papers.)
At 100000 km front high corrector has been replaced, at 90000 LHM (by that time I was suggested to rebuild front struts ???? (worn but slightly) but then I have changed the service, new servicer adviced not to go for it, discs and pads replaced at 108800 km.
I noticed yesterday that return hoses are Citroen genuine part with mark 1993 or just 93 (must be year of production). Adnders are suspension cylinders acctualy the struts (which might not be rebuilt on Xantias?).
Blueboy I haven't paid attention on ticking rate when Xantia is in the lowest position. I'll try to see that too. It starts to click constantly when I release regulator bleed screw just for 1/4 of turn and the car is in the lowest position already. I ve notice that after this "procedure" (including citrobics) hydraulic system behavesbetter for another day or two.
This morning, on my way to work, I noticed that rear end did not dived too much just when I was applying brakes. After 3 or 4 hours of beeing parked rear end was in regular driving position but this time front end dived almost to end. Sometimes it does in this particular way, usually rear end is that that drops first and after couple of hours front does the simmilar. Repeat again, when doseur was changed in June, first two weeks car would have stayed in "air" for days, no brake problems, no klong sound, no judder, no just one end sink before other ...
I have just remember, accumulator was replaced (no charge - guarantee period) a week before doseur 'cause I started to report hyd./brake problems to my regular service or garage.
New accumulator healed the problems and it "normal behaviour period" lasted just one week.
If nothing else, I'll go for hydroflush in August. It would be arround 1500 km before service at 130000. I hope it would solve the problem.
Maybe all those problems I have been faced with, are because of not so clean system. When car left the garage, everything is fine for period of time. If something was wrong in system (worn part or similar) it would been wrong all the time, without exceptions, would't be?
New ideas?
According to numbers from dash my Xantia made over 126600 km. I'm owner since November 2000 and by that time it had arround 74000 (I hope it was true although I received car with it original invoice, service book and other papers.)
At 100000 km front high corrector has been replaced, at 90000 LHM (by that time I was suggested to rebuild front struts ???? (worn but slightly) but then I have changed the service, new servicer adviced not to go for it, discs and pads replaced at 108800 km.
I noticed yesterday that return hoses are Citroen genuine part with mark 1993 or just 93 (must be year of production). Adnders are suspension cylinders acctualy the struts (which might not be rebuilt on Xantias?).
Blueboy I haven't paid attention on ticking rate when Xantia is in the lowest position. I'll try to see that too. It starts to click constantly when I release regulator bleed screw just for 1/4 of turn and the car is in the lowest position already. I ve notice that after this "procedure" (including citrobics) hydraulic system behavesbetter for another day or two.
This morning, on my way to work, I noticed that rear end did not dived too much just when I was applying brakes. After 3 or 4 hours of beeing parked rear end was in regular driving position but this time front end dived almost to end. Sometimes it does in this particular way, usually rear end is that that drops first and after couple of hours front does the simmilar. Repeat again, when doseur was changed in June, first two weeks car would have stayed in "air" for days, no brake problems, no klong sound, no judder, no just one end sink before other ...
I have just remember, accumulator was replaced (no charge - guarantee period) a week before doseur 'cause I started to report hyd./brake problems to my regular service or garage.
New accumulator healed the problems and it "normal behaviour period" lasted just one week.
If nothing else, I'll go for hydroflush in August. It would be arround 1500 km before service at 130000. I hope it would solve the problem.
Maybe all those problems I have been faced with, are because of not so clean system. When car left the garage, everything is fine for period of time. If something was wrong in system (worn part or similar) it would been wrong all the time, without exceptions, would't be?
New ideas?
Akojic -
Front suspension Cylinders = front suspension struts.
On Xantia these can NOT be repaired, but they are better quality than on the BX - and will last longer. With 126Kkm on the clock - the suspension cylinders (struts) should NOT be worn - but check the flow from their return hoses directly (at the wheels) - then you are SURE [;)]
It may well be a good idea doing a hydraflush cleaning cure.
I suspect you may be right - that many of your problems in fact could simply be the system in need of cleaning.
Please note :
When you release the regulator bleed screw 1/4 turn - the ticking WILL be constant - this is normal.
If you set height to lowest (Blueboy's sugg.) - then the HC's will close off the pressure for all suspension. Testing for flow in the small hoses at reservoir - you will then NOT see any flow coming from leaks in the suspension cylinders. If you have leaks still - it will be from other components.
Front suspension Cylinders = front suspension struts.
On Xantia these can NOT be repaired, but they are better quality than on the BX - and will last longer. With 126Kkm on the clock - the suspension cylinders (struts) should NOT be worn - but check the flow from their return hoses directly (at the wheels) - then you are SURE [;)]
It may well be a good idea doing a hydraflush cleaning cure.
I suspect you may be right - that many of your problems in fact could simply be the system in need of cleaning.
Please note :
When you release the regulator bleed screw 1/4 turn - the ticking WILL be constant - this is normal.
If you set height to lowest (Blueboy's sugg.) - then the HC's will close off the pressure for all suspension. Testing for flow in the small hoses at reservoir - you will then NOT see any flow coming from leaks in the suspension cylinders. If you have leaks still - it will be from other components.