V6 Heater Pipes and matrix

[Ozzie Kuma]

I posted this on the V6 site a few days ago...

Hi,
I have owned my V6 for 3 months, spent a fortune on it already but still love it.
#1
The previous owner disconnected the heater at the two hoses to the engine. They are still hanging there. Obviously a by-pass pipe was put in but I can not for the life of me figure out where the original location of the hoses is. I have dug & dug on line for photos or diagrams , even paid a small fortune for a 7 Gb workshop manual from "EManualOnline" just to discover it is not Mac compatible then when I tried to transfer it to my PC the activation was voided! ( the joys of owning a V6) So if anyone can assist with a photo, diagram or description of where they connect, I would appreciate it very much.
#2
I guess the reason the heater is disconnected is that it leaks but I would like to confirm it. Knowing the previous owner, it may well be that he just didn't want to use it.... I wonder if there is a way to pressure test the unit by connecting something to the two hoses ( whilst they are still hanging free) to see if it actually is leaking ? Any ideas?

Assuming the worst, I guess changing the matrix is my next big job. I have replaced the radiator, the collection bottles, had the wiper mechanism out ( I am not looking forward to taking that plastic thing from the windscreen off again!) so I have a general idea of what is where in the engine bay but not tackled anything like a dash removal.
I have read CitoJim's helpful post on the Citroen forum about the issues involved in changing the matrix ( thanks Jim) & await your "how to..".

regards

......... since then I have tracked down the original owner & he advises the heater matrix is stuffed, leaded 3 months out of warranty !!! what is the story with Citroen getting such s@#ty parts !

I also asked a couple of shops about the job,..no one is interested, too difficult,.. so it looks like I will have t try to do it... SO , I hang out for a "how to..." on the subject.

Anyone know where I can get a GOOD downloadable V6 manual ?( not just a Haynes)

[CitroJim]

My 'Old V6' was in exactly the same condition Ozzie. Stuffed matrix and bypassed hoses. You're in good company!!!

My hoses were cut and joined by a bit of copper water pipe. Your previous owner may have doe it properly by bypassing with a new length of hose from the 'bubble breaker' to the thermostat housing. Are you saying there are no pipes and an elbow connector going to the heater matrix socket on the bulkhead? If there is no pipe and connector, you'll need a new one and they might be a tad pricey...

I can show you the exact route and where the pipes connect no worries at all.

If you lived where I once lived, in Darwin - up in the Top End, you'd never need a heater but I understand it can get chilly enough sometimes down your way to want one!

The actual job of replacing a matrix is not technically difficult but it is long and tedious; the whole dash has to come out and that's a lot of screws, bolts and wiring... Many of us on here have had the 'pleasure' and two of the most difficult jobs is to disconnect the heater matrix elbow (already done by the sounds of it!) and to carefully remove the bonded-on scuttle trim panel at the base of the windscreen. This latter job is essential to gain access to the top dash mounting bolts. The scuttle trim panel must then be re-bonded to the screen to prevent rainwater running directly underneath it, into the heater intake and flooding the passenger compartment.

There is a step-by-step guide somewhere on here but I can never find it when I need it.

Anyone know where I can get a GOOD downloadable V6 manual ?( not just a Haynes)

Pass. I have the full Citroen manuals here but they cover all Xantia models and are very, very voluminous. Any specific information you need, just ask and I'll do my best to provide. There's not much I've not done on a V6 now, except the engine. They're pretty reliable and bombproof except for a tendency to leak oil.

There are a number of us who've been all over the V6 like a rash and are quite knowledgeable of them so use this forum as a workshop manual Hanyes is rubbish for the V6 as it doesn't even mention it

[andmcit]

On ebay.fr I bought an L'expert Automobile french workshop manuasl that
covers the series2's and as well as covering the HDi engine it does cover
the more crucial for you V6 in quite reasonable depth. The manual is Nº374

OK, so it's all in French but covers things like the elecgtrical box beside the
battery box, sphere information.

I can't see one ATM but this may yied results:

http://cgi.ebay.fr/Revue-technique-auto ... 483de6e012



Andrew

[Ozzie Kuma]

Thanks guys.
Jim, Darwin ! & you survived ! I did post a bit of an "Intro", I'm in St Ives ( Sydney )
I have already had the scuttle trim panel off & PUT IT BACK ON !! the whole area under it was full of leaves hence not draining. Oh joy, now I have to take it off again !!
I did see a few lines from you on the subject of dash removal ending with " I post a how to soon" but could not find the how to.
The pipes are all still there ( as far as I can tell) so just have to reconnect, once I figure out where AND replace the matrix.
Time is now the issue, I go back to work on Monday, & I gather this is a 2 day , 2 person job from your previous posts.

Do you know how to remove the arm rest on the left of the drivers seat? My droops & seems to need re-bushing.

I sincerely appreciate all your assistance.

regards

[addo]

Car is stuffed. I'll give you $50 for it.



Better to study up and do the dash yourself. A lot can be "prepped" before the actual mission so long as driving around with a bunch of non-essential dash stuff out isn't a concern.

Do you need a heater matrix or have you been robbbed locally for one? I could do with a couple; ordering three ex-UK Fleabay might be the cheapest bet.

EDIT: Learning a little French (or a lot) will help greatly in reduction of ownership costs, as you can crosscheck against LHD market cars and parts.

[Ozzie Kuma]

addo, $51 & it's yours ! NOT ON YOUR LIFE ! since changing the toe to OUT it is just such a pleasure to drive I even did the shopping in it, Chatswood on a Saturday...!

No I don't have a matrix yet, what do they cost here ? Are you suggesting we buy 3 from UK & import via a Forum UK member to get a saving ?

[Ozzie Kuma]

Thanks Jim, just realised you "split off" this topic, good idea, it looks like it might be a drawn out affair & I'll do my best to photo journal my adventure for others info...

( no experience on forums, how did you split off the post?)

[CitroJim]

Not only did we survive Darwin but we also had a baby there too! She's now 18 and forever has a good Aussie name: Robyn....

I found what amounts to a rough guide on matrix replacement here. Never worry though as the job is clear enough in my head to fill in any details you may need...

Later today when I give Old V6 a check over I'll note and picture the exact heater hose routings for you...

It's a good idea for you and Adam to import a few matrixes...

( no experience on forums, how did you split off the post?)

It's an admin/moderator job only I'm afraid Ozzie. We can split on request or do as we did on your thread.

No idea on how to remove the armrest except that it's an once-only job I believe and the new bits as shown in Andrew's pictures are needed for replacement...

[myglaren]

Derek, your Picasa images are set to private. You need to reset them to public viewing for us to be able to see them.

[CitroJim]

Ozzie,

Here's a diagram of the V6 colling system showing where the heater matrix connects.



Item 2 is what we call the 'bubble breaker' a small plastic expansion vessel at the rear of the engine visible below the main header tank and Idle Control Valve.

From that diagram, you will be able to figure out how the matrix has been bypassed.

Access is not good and to get at the pipery it will be necessary to whip off the airbox, a necessary pre-requsite in may V6 jobs!!!

EDIT: This diagram is not strictly accurate for an auto as it fails to show the transmission cooler pipework.. It'll be obvious which is which thought once you get sight of it.

[addo]

I found a bloke on Fleabay implying he has the correct Valeo matrix (crosses to 0000644880) for less than £20/pop. Seems worth looking into.

[CitroJim]

Ozzie,

Just a bit more illustrative stuff:

This is a physical representation of the above diagram on a real engine that's had the car around it removed for clarity...



This is how I reconnected the cut pipes on my Old V6. The longer of the two pipes fits into clips along the top of the hydraulic pipe runs that go across the bulkhead which can just be seen in this picture...

[Ozzie Kuma]

Ahhhhhh ! I can't keep up with all this "forum-ing" ! I still haven't quite got the gist of things as you see by the image that didn't work ( thanks myglaren) & answering quick enough to the people who reply, so if I miss replying to you , sorry.

Jim,.. again so many thanks,..
As I think I mentioned somewhere, all my pipes are still there, & I have just put in a new radiator & the bubble bottle, the top bottle is only 2 years old...thanks for the pics & great diagram. I had seen the " Cost of replace...." entry but lost it, tar.
I am in the middle of putting in relays for the lights ( do I need a relay for each light ?) so I shall tackle the Heater in a few weeks. I shall store your info in the meantime.

Why do these things break / leak so easily ?? It seems that every V6's heater has gone kaput! What is to say the new one will last 13 months ( one month out of warrantee if there were such a thing) & go kaput ?


Addo,...20 pounds for a matrix, $50-ish,.. sounds fine to me, I have no idea what they cost here,... lets do it... you anywhere near snives so I can get the $s to you?

(I'll have another crack at implanting an image...)

[CitroJim]

That's a great pair you have there Ozzie You really must tell the locals to stop taking pot-shots at your number plates though. It's making a real mess of them... Surely there's something better they can use for target practice?

No worries on the foruming. You'll soon get the hang of it... You're doing fine so far!

Hope the headlight replay mod went Ok. A bit late perhaps but this is a very rough sketch of the circuit of the mod as done to my Activa. There's a lot I do badly and drawing is one of them



It's not only V6 heaters that go, it's ALL Xantias. Many theories abound as to why but my favorites is degradation of the O rings on the internal joint between the pipes and matrix body itself. I don't believe the matrix itself gives up all that often.

Another possibility is abrasive scale in the cooling system causing cavitation erosion on the matrix U bends. I've not sen it on a Xantia but have a couple of times on a Peugeot 205 that was run without antifreeze for a while in a very hard water area. The scale acted like fine abrasive and pin-holed the U bends in short time.

Valeo recommend a good flush before fitting the matrix and this is easy (ish) on the V6 as each cylinder bank has an accessible (by Citroen Standards) a drain cock. A proper cock on the MK1 but just threaded plugs on the MK11 sadly.

Finally, Valeo also recommend that the system be refilled with good anti-freeze and a dose of Forte Stop Leak. Don't know if it's available down your way but we reckon it's good tackle up here in the nortern hemisphere. Don't use any old rad sealer/conditioner though as there's a risk of clogging the transmission cooler and this can have consequences


When reconnecting the marix pipes, use new O rings on the pipe stubs. Part No. 6464 V1.

[addo]

Trade price on a matrix here, is rather higher than landed cost off UK Fleabay. I'll have one last go at the suppliers to see if they can be had cheaper - after all, it's either a sale or not for them.