Toe IN or toe OUT ?

[Ozzie Kuma]

Hi,
My first post !

I have a 95 VSX Xantia ( owned since new ) which handles beautifully.

I recently bought an Xantia V6 which has much different handling / steering / feel. I would describe it as "lighter". I have to pay more attention to steering.

It steers true & has no damage, nothing is out of alignment or bent.

The spheres are all good. At 160ks the steering improves & is close to the feel of the VSX.

In an endeavour to get the V6 to steer like the VSX, I have put new wheels & tyres to match the 55 profile tyres on the VSX.

On the advise of the Local tyre shop, I changed the "toe" to first 1 then 2 degrees IN

But it still does not feel right.

I thought a front wheel drive car should have tow out but I am no expert, I just know I get in the VSX & it feels GREAT! where the V6 feels OK but not Great.

Can anyone comment or advise on how to get more direct, slightly heavier "feel" from my steering please or is it just the characteristic of the V6 to be more "sporty".

regards for the colonies..

[andmcit]

I will need to check my manuals when I get home but IIRC
(95% certain mind) Xantia and Xm are 1mm toe OUT!
Not sure of the +/- tolerance TBH.

To me it has always seemed wrong as the CX and GS
were always toe in as much as 2mm.

It'd significantly alter the feel of your steering if you adjust
out that 2mm.

Andrew

[CitroJim]

Hi Ozzie and a big old-Country welcome to the forum Whereabouts in Oz are you?

The V6 is a bit of a different animal to the VSX (and all other Xantias) in the steering department. The HP pump is different. More powerful and has an external pressure regulator for the steering. Also, the front struts are bigger than in any other model.

Although the engine itself is light (for a 3.0L V6 that is), the gearbox is an incredibly heavy lump at nearly 100Kg.

Against that background I find the V6 has very light steering but the sheer weight to the power-train is very apparent and this does make it feel a bit different to other Xantias, a bit on the front-heavy side, most noticeable when cornering with any degree of enthusiasm...

My only comparison is with an Activa and really that's no comparison at all It's been too long now since I've owned a smaller engined Hydractive Xantia to say exactly if the V6 does feel any different; suffice to say it feels very different to the Activa

I'm sure other V6 owners will soon pitch in with their views.

[AndersDK]

Toe-IN will give steering wander on front wheelers.
The toe must be between neutral and 3.0mm (0°25') toe-OUT on both Xantia & XM all variants.

[Ozzie Kuma]

Thank you all, I shall try a bit of toe OUT & advise for future ref by others.

Jim, I am from the north part of Sydney, I'll put together a bit of info & stick it in the "Intro" section later today. ( & many thanks for all your contributions I have spent hours scanning stuff & notice your name often , well done)

Also I posted something on the V6 site about heater connections but sadly the V6 site does not seem to get the traffic this one gets, should I re post on this site do you thing?

[Ozzie Kuma]

Just had the car adjusted & OH what a difference,.. toe out 25 minutes on my V6 is heaven.
thanks all.

[CitroJim]

Just had the car adjusted & OH what a difference,.. toe out 25 minutes on my V6 is heaven.
thanks all.

Excellent They are a car you can fall deeply in love with. I have!!!

The V6 site is very quiet. I confess a lack of time and effort on it

Any V6 stuff is good to be posted here...

What's the heater connection problem?

[mongoose100]

Thank you all, I shall try a bit of toe OUT & advise for future ref by others.

Jim, I am from the north part of Sydney, I'll put together a bit of info & stick it in the "Intro" section later today. ( & many thanks for all your contributions I have spent hours scanning stuff & notice your name often , well done)

Also I posted something on the V6 site about heater connections but sadly the V6 site does not seem to get the traffic this one gets, should I re post on this site do you thing?

Hi mate, can you please post the details, my local tyre shop just did wheel alignment and the V6 is behaving like an absolute PIG!

[andmcit]

FWIW - Haynes in Supension & Steering section

Xm front toe setting - 0 to 3.0 mm toe-out
Xantia front toe setting - 0 to 3.0 (0º00' to 0º25') mm toe-out

a more reliable source is a genuine Citroen press kit for the Activa V6
confirming the same

in fact for the Activa V6:

Front
Castor angle 2.93º
Camber angle 0º
Pivot inclination angle 13.01º
Wheel alignment 3 mm (toe-out)
Ground level offset 5.9 mm
Diameter of Anti-roll bar 28 mm

Rear
Camber angle - 1º
Wheel alignment - 1 to - 6 mm (toe-in)
Diameter of Anti-sway bar 25 mm

[Ozzie Kuma]

see AndersDK's email above,..

I am no expert but ask your shop to tell you what your car is set at when you bring it in & ask them to increase the toe OUT.How much is a personal thing, one man's opinion of great steering is not necessarily the same as the next.

The calculating how much is done on a lazer machine they stick on the wheels & calculating it is automatic but if you want to get into it there is stuff on line..... eg.
"mm of toe is tire diameter dependant. The toe corresponds to the distance in mm from which the rim diverges at its back compared to its front at the axis height.

If we take a toe angle of 0.1° (6' minutes) each side :

using wheels as eg ~25 inches = 635 mm (depend on the tires).

The way it diverges at the rear compared to the front is 635 mm x sin 0.1° = 1.11 mm.

Calculated this way, which is tire size dependant :
0.1 ° each = 0.06' each = 1.11 mm each -> 0.2 ° total = 0.12' total = 2.22 mm total

If the alignment machine assume a 28 inch tire diameter (it doesn't take in account the exact tire diameter) :

0.1 ° each = 0.06' each = 1.25 mm each -> 0.2 ° total = 0.12' total = 2.5 mm total"

I asked the shop to set the toe OUT to 25mins, drove it, big improvement over 2mm IN. Took 5 mins...

[CitroJim]

Ozzie, I've split off a new thread for the heater pipes and matrix..

It's here