Hi,
Is there a way of telling whether the timing belt on a 94 Xantia 1.9TD has been changed if the service history is not available, such as a helpful manufacturers date stamp on the belt?
The car has full service history up to the 60,000 mile service only, but is now on 84,000 miles. There are signs that the covers have been off, missing clips, that sort of thing, so it *might* have been changed sometime in the last 24,000 miles. It would be nice to be able to find out if it is the original or not if anyone knows if this is possible by inspection?
If not, does anyone know of a good walk through description of the procedure because the Haynes manual takes you on such a tour, and it doesn't describe a coherent order to procedures. For example, it has you putting the locating pins in *before* loosening the crankshaft pulley nut, but most bizarely of all near the end of the dismantling has you removing the main accumulator sphere which involves de-pressurising, a procedure which it states requires running the engine, and the suspension at its lowest. This when you've already removed the timing covers, the crankshaft pulley and have a trolley jack under the sump supporting the engine with the right hand mounting removed!
I could do this job with a set of coherent instructions, but the Haynes manual is still defeating me. If anyone who has done the job could describe the order in which they did what, I can fill in the details from the manual.
Do I really need to mess with the hydraulics to do this job?
Many thanks in advance, and I'll report back how I got on!
How to change Xantia timing belt?
Moderator: RichardW
Neil -
If your car has no history on the cambelt - there's no way to tell how long the present belt has been in service [:(]
There may be a date code on the belt - but the belt may have been stocked for a year or 2 - nothing to do with the date of fitting.
Good garages used to allways put a sticker on the cover - telling date & mileage for last belt replacement - but I have to admit that It's been ages since I last saw such a sticker in an engine bay.
Now you know why concerned owners of s/h cars allways replace the cambelt as first task when car aquired - only way to be sure [8)]
If your Haynes copy is dodgy on the work sequence - try look around for a later edition. Haynes usually do updates approx every 2-3 y's on the manuals - to cover later versions of same car model - at the same time updating errata.
Not knowing about the Xantia - I cannot figure out why it should be necessary to fiddle with the hydraulics - replacing the cambelt.
Unless some hydraulic lines have to be dismantled for access.
There are some rules of thumb doing the cambelt - ensuring the whole job (removing & refitting belt) not needs redoing soon :
Check waterpump by handturning - ANY slack on axle or slightest sign of leaks means new pump. The pump axle may bind a little on turning - indicating the seal is still tight.
Check belt tensioner & idler wheels/bearings for perfect smooth running - same basic rule apply.
Check cam & crank axle for any signs of oil leaking axle seals - replace axle seals if any faults seen.
BEFORE removing old belt :
Degrease belt sprockets for cam(s), crank & any diesel pump.
Then - using white ink - clearly mark up one tooth on each sprocket & the 2 surrounding teeth on the belt for each sprocket mark.
Make an index line on the belt top indicating cam (or firewall-most cam) as a reference for your markings. Then make an arrow on belt pointing towards front of car.
Now you have a 100% accurate reference for re-fitting the belt [8D]
- and you may remove it safely [;)]
Taking your new belt - you quickly recognise factory stamped index line marks & direction arrow.
Touch up a cam index line (either one found) on new belt with white ink - then laying the old belt inside the new one - flat on a table - copy the other markings from you old belt to the new belt.
Check & re-check the teeth count between markings both belts to be the same. Have your missus to re-check - ensuring you did'nt get stuck in the check.
Now you simply fit the new belt according to your markings - no index/locating bolts - no growning - no tears for fears - no fear missing a single tooth indexing - no nothing - simply lot's of work & fear saved [8D][8D]
You may think it over & over again : it is NOT necessary fiddling with locating pins - axle indexing - or whatever "pro's" are telling you [:D]
If your car has no history on the cambelt - there's no way to tell how long the present belt has been in service [:(]
There may be a date code on the belt - but the belt may have been stocked for a year or 2 - nothing to do with the date of fitting.
Good garages used to allways put a sticker on the cover - telling date & mileage for last belt replacement - but I have to admit that It's been ages since I last saw such a sticker in an engine bay.
Now you know why concerned owners of s/h cars allways replace the cambelt as first task when car aquired - only way to be sure [8)]
If your Haynes copy is dodgy on the work sequence - try look around for a later edition. Haynes usually do updates approx every 2-3 y's on the manuals - to cover later versions of same car model - at the same time updating errata.
Not knowing about the Xantia - I cannot figure out why it should be necessary to fiddle with the hydraulics - replacing the cambelt.
Unless some hydraulic lines have to be dismantled for access.
There are some rules of thumb doing the cambelt - ensuring the whole job (removing & refitting belt) not needs redoing soon :
Check waterpump by handturning - ANY slack on axle or slightest sign of leaks means new pump. The pump axle may bind a little on turning - indicating the seal is still tight.
Check belt tensioner & idler wheels/bearings for perfect smooth running - same basic rule apply.
Check cam & crank axle for any signs of oil leaking axle seals - replace axle seals if any faults seen.
BEFORE removing old belt :
Degrease belt sprockets for cam(s), crank & any diesel pump.
Then - using white ink - clearly mark up one tooth on each sprocket & the 2 surrounding teeth on the belt for each sprocket mark.
Make an index line on the belt top indicating cam (or firewall-most cam) as a reference for your markings. Then make an arrow on belt pointing towards front of car.
Now you have a 100% accurate reference for re-fitting the belt [8D]
- and you may remove it safely [;)]
Taking your new belt - you quickly recognise factory stamped index line marks & direction arrow.
Touch up a cam index line (either one found) on new belt with white ink - then laying the old belt inside the new one - flat on a table - copy the other markings from you old belt to the new belt.
Check & re-check the teeth count between markings both belts to be the same. Have your missus to re-check - ensuring you did'nt get stuck in the check.
Now you simply fit the new belt according to your markings - no index/locating bolts - no growning - no tears for fears - no fear missing a single tooth indexing - no nothing - simply lot's of work & fear saved [8D][8D]
You may think it over & over again : it is NOT necessary fiddling with locating pins - axle indexing - or whatever "pro's" are telling you [:D]
-
JohnD
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Neil - As Anders said - there's no way one can tell whether a belt has been changed at the recommended time. However about ten years ago we bought a diesel 205 and as part of the deal, a new belt was to be fitted. In due course, being a suspicious old b******, I removed the top cover. To me, it didn't look like a new belt. Words were exchanged, and it was agreed that a local garage would decide. I took the car to them still with the cover off. They agreed with me and in due course they fitted a belt without charge to me.
Over the last ten years I've fitted several belts to BX's and Xantias and it's never been necessary to remove the Acc. sphere. The topic has been fairly well covered since this forum began. Try the search feature, but if you require further help to tackle the job, come back again.
Over the last ten years I've fitted several belts to BX's and Xantias and it's never been necessary to remove the Acc. sphere. The topic has been fairly well covered since this forum began. Try the search feature, but if you require further help to tackle the job, come back again.
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
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- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Whip the cover off and look at the printing on the belt, with 84,000 miles worth of running on it there will barely be anything left of the printing.
I'v got a belt here taken off at 20,000 miles and the printing is still fairly fresh looking, but of course if in doubt change it.
Anders is a well meaning and helpfull chap, thats why he gives his time freely to come and help folk on here, I take his point about marking the belt and pulleys for certain difficult to time engines with less than obvious markings, but this engine is not one of them and a foolproof (amost, some still manage to get it wrong) method of doing the job allready exists for those that can be bothered to obtain the correct tools, wich are merely three M8x50 bolts and a piece of 8MM silver steel or similar, you can buy all this in a simple inexpensive kit or you can buy a white marker pen and hope you don't accidentaly rub the mark(s) from the pulleys, cos'if you do you will not know where the hell you are with it and a mistake made here might reduce you to tears.
Disconect the intake air pipe to the turbo but just loosen the outlet pipe so it can move, if you don't you will find removal of the plastic timing cover difficult if it is the screw on type, if its the clip on type you may get away with it.
I disconect the transverse link to prevent paining it while raising and lowering the engine and use a support bar in the rain channels, if you have to use a jack leave the transverse link in place or the engine can slide forward and trash the rad.
Be sure to loosen the crank pulley bolt with the engine hot as the locking compound will give in at much less force.
The order of things to be done is not a mystery and would suggest not taking much notice of the book, especialy when told to mess around with the hydraulics.
Have the car in the high position before you begin and put it on safe axle stands.
Again if supporting the engine with a jack you must make sure it can not slip, you need to have your hands between the engine and the body work to do this job and there isn't much room, if the engine drops you might get your hand(s) crushed, I would never attempt this job using a jack under the sump, just the thought of what can happen if it goes pear shape is enough.
Dave
I'v got a belt here taken off at 20,000 miles and the printing is still fairly fresh looking, but of course if in doubt change it.
Anders is a well meaning and helpfull chap, thats why he gives his time freely to come and help folk on here, I take his point about marking the belt and pulleys for certain difficult to time engines with less than obvious markings, but this engine is not one of them and a foolproof (amost, some still manage to get it wrong) method of doing the job allready exists for those that can be bothered to obtain the correct tools, wich are merely three M8x50 bolts and a piece of 8MM silver steel or similar, you can buy all this in a simple inexpensive kit or you can buy a white marker pen and hope you don't accidentaly rub the mark(s) from the pulleys, cos'if you do you will not know where the hell you are with it and a mistake made here might reduce you to tears.
Disconect the intake air pipe to the turbo but just loosen the outlet pipe so it can move, if you don't you will find removal of the plastic timing cover difficult if it is the screw on type, if its the clip on type you may get away with it.
I disconect the transverse link to prevent paining it while raising and lowering the engine and use a support bar in the rain channels, if you have to use a jack leave the transverse link in place or the engine can slide forward and trash the rad.
Be sure to loosen the crank pulley bolt with the engine hot as the locking compound will give in at much less force.
The order of things to be done is not a mystery and would suggest not taking much notice of the book, especialy when told to mess around with the hydraulics.
Have the car in the high position before you begin and put it on safe axle stands.
Again if supporting the engine with a jack you must make sure it can not slip, you need to have your hands between the engine and the body work to do this job and there isn't much room, if the engine drops you might get your hand(s) crushed, I would never attempt this job using a jack under the sump, just the thought of what can happen if it goes pear shape is enough.
Dave
Thanks everyone for the helpful replies.
I tried accessing the archives through the 'search' button, checking the 'archive' tick box and using 'belt' and 'xantia' (all words) as search terms but it returned no hits!, so any suggestions there, welcome.
For this first time, I think I might try both the pins and white marker together - belt and braces!
How does this sound as a broad outline procedure?:
1. Remove RH wheel, using axle stand for safety.
2. Remove inner wheel arch cover. With car in 5th gear and someone on the brake pedal, slacken the crankshaft pulley retaining nut.
3. Take strain on sump with trolley jack and block of wood interposed. Insert suitable block of wood between 'rocker cover' and bulkhead to prevent the backward tipping mentioned in Haynes.
4. Remove RH engine mounting.
5. Remove the top timing belt covers.
6. Insert locating rods.
7. Remove the crankshaft pulley, now only loosely held by retaining nut.
8. Remove lower timing cover.
9. Release belt tensioner.
10. Remove belt, confident that I don't have to "Remove the sphere from the main accumulator, and unbolt the lower cover (don't know what this refers to) from the transmission"
(latest Haynes 2B-7 6)
11. Reassembly is a reverse of disassembly!
Thanks again,
Neil T
I tried accessing the archives through the 'search' button, checking the 'archive' tick box and using 'belt' and 'xantia' (all words) as search terms but it returned no hits!, so any suggestions there, welcome.
For this first time, I think I might try both the pins and white marker together - belt and braces!
How does this sound as a broad outline procedure?:
1. Remove RH wheel, using axle stand for safety.
2. Remove inner wheel arch cover. With car in 5th gear and someone on the brake pedal, slacken the crankshaft pulley retaining nut.
3. Take strain on sump with trolley jack and block of wood interposed. Insert suitable block of wood between 'rocker cover' and bulkhead to prevent the backward tipping mentioned in Haynes.
4. Remove RH engine mounting.
5. Remove the top timing belt covers.
6. Insert locating rods.
7. Remove the crankshaft pulley, now only loosely held by retaining nut.
8. Remove lower timing cover.
9. Release belt tensioner.
10. Remove belt, confident that I don't have to "Remove the sphere from the main accumulator, and unbolt the lower cover (don't know what this refers to) from the transmission"
(latest Haynes 2B-7 6)
11. Reassembly is a reverse of disassembly!
Thanks again,
Neil T
Neil,
I am one to agree with you on the "belt & braces" logic.
I say this after doing it on my BX16V as I found doing both ways puts in place checks & balances that each system can catch you out on otherwise.
In retrospect, doing just one style can have you very apprehensive as you turn the key & very smug if all goes well, whereas checked both ways gives that added feel of security.
Having done a few belts over the years, not all on BXs, I would suggest though that if the opportunity arises or if one is available for hire at a reasonable cost, a hoist/gantry/block & tackle, is a worthwhile investment in security & convenience when it comes time to do this job. I'm fortunate enough to have access to a very portable one & I presonally feel that besides giving you a much more secure feeling when you have your arms in somewhat safety compromised positions (under the engine etc) whilst at times thrashing around like a fish out of water, it is much easier to manouvre the motor & its components whilst swinging from a chain than when sitting on a jack and the visions of life without arms don't become quite so vivid. [}:)][;)]
Alan S[:D]
I am one to agree with you on the "belt & braces" logic.
I say this after doing it on my BX16V as I found doing both ways puts in place checks & balances that each system can catch you out on otherwise.
In retrospect, doing just one style can have you very apprehensive as you turn the key & very smug if all goes well, whereas checked both ways gives that added feel of security.
Having done a few belts over the years, not all on BXs, I would suggest though that if the opportunity arises or if one is available for hire at a reasonable cost, a hoist/gantry/block & tackle, is a worthwhile investment in security & convenience when it comes time to do this job. I'm fortunate enough to have access to a very portable one & I presonally feel that besides giving you a much more secure feeling when you have your arms in somewhat safety compromised positions (under the engine etc) whilst at times thrashing around like a fish out of water, it is much easier to manouvre the motor & its components whilst swinging from a chain than when sitting on a jack and the visions of life without arms don't become quite so vivid. [}:)][;)]
Alan S[:D]
-
RichardW
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'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl - x 996
Neil,
Having done this job twice recently (mine and a mates) - I'd say you're about spot on with your sequence. Haynes does seem a bit confused - I think they are talking about jamming the start ring from under the engine, if you can't hold the engine on the brakes. I had no problem holding it on the brakes on either car, and I (15 stone) was swinging on the end of a 3ft bar - that bolt is TIGHT!!
Some thoughts...
If the engine undertray is still fitted, get this off first (you will probably need to cut it off!), put the two front corner bolts back in to hold the wing liners in place (if you don't, they drag on the road and make a horrendous racket above about 30mph - or so my wife tells me[:D]...!!), then take the car for a 10 mile run to get it nice and warm - straight in the garage, on the stands, whip the wing liner out (you almost certainly won't be able to separate the front part so take the whole thing out), get your beefy 22mm socket on the crank nut, support the extension on an axle stand/jack/blocks etc and crack the pulley nut. Breath a big sigh of relief, and get a long cup of tea while the engine cools down.
When jacking under the sump, use a piece of wood long enough to go from end to end, otherwise you finish up with a dent in the sump!
You will need a 16mm deep socket to get the engine mount off - I have a spark plug spanner that fits this.
Getting onto the square hole to turn the tensioner can be fun - on my mate's car with air con there was just not enough room to manoeuver the extension in, so we ended up cutting down a bolt and filing it square on the end (it should be 10mm) which made the job (a bit) easier.
Getting a pin in the hole behind the starter is a game also - I have a long rod, with about 3" at the end bent up about 25-30 degress, I find then I can operate this from the driver's side of the car whilst turning the engine over by the wheel. On my mate's car the hole was blocked with carbonised oil, so we had to drop the starter off. The hole is basically along the line of the bottom of the sump - but there is no way you can see it!!
Remove the outlet pipe from the turbo - it only takes a few minutes, but makes life MUCH easier! As yours is an earlier car with clip on covers you shouldn't need to remove the inlet pipe - which is good as this is a right bugger!
Took me about 5 hours to do mine (later with bolt on covers) and thought Mate's (earlier with clip on, and 2 of us working on it, would be easier) however, the blocked timing hole, stuck crankshaft pulley, and seized tensioner all conspired to make it a 7 hour job. Oh well....
Still, my belt was well cracked all across the back, and the timing was at least 1/2 tooth out on the injection pump, so the car is much smoother now. Worth the time and effort.
I'd say enjoy, but it's a nasty, nasty job!
Richard
Having done this job twice recently (mine and a mates) - I'd say you're about spot on with your sequence. Haynes does seem a bit confused - I think they are talking about jamming the start ring from under the engine, if you can't hold the engine on the brakes. I had no problem holding it on the brakes on either car, and I (15 stone) was swinging on the end of a 3ft bar - that bolt is TIGHT!!
Some thoughts...
If the engine undertray is still fitted, get this off first (you will probably need to cut it off!), put the two front corner bolts back in to hold the wing liners in place (if you don't, they drag on the road and make a horrendous racket above about 30mph - or so my wife tells me[:D]...!!), then take the car for a 10 mile run to get it nice and warm - straight in the garage, on the stands, whip the wing liner out (you almost certainly won't be able to separate the front part so take the whole thing out), get your beefy 22mm socket on the crank nut, support the extension on an axle stand/jack/blocks etc and crack the pulley nut. Breath a big sigh of relief, and get a long cup of tea while the engine cools down.
When jacking under the sump, use a piece of wood long enough to go from end to end, otherwise you finish up with a dent in the sump!
You will need a 16mm deep socket to get the engine mount off - I have a spark plug spanner that fits this.
Getting onto the square hole to turn the tensioner can be fun - on my mate's car with air con there was just not enough room to manoeuver the extension in, so we ended up cutting down a bolt and filing it square on the end (it should be 10mm) which made the job (a bit) easier.
Getting a pin in the hole behind the starter is a game also - I have a long rod, with about 3" at the end bent up about 25-30 degress, I find then I can operate this from the driver's side of the car whilst turning the engine over by the wheel. On my mate's car the hole was blocked with carbonised oil, so we had to drop the starter off. The hole is basically along the line of the bottom of the sump - but there is no way you can see it!!
Remove the outlet pipe from the turbo - it only takes a few minutes, but makes life MUCH easier! As yours is an earlier car with clip on covers you shouldn't need to remove the inlet pipe - which is good as this is a right bugger!
Took me about 5 hours to do mine (later with bolt on covers) and thought Mate's (earlier with clip on, and 2 of us working on it, would be easier) however, the blocked timing hole, stuck crankshaft pulley, and seized tensioner all conspired to make it a 7 hour job. Oh well....
Still, my belt was well cracked all across the back, and the timing was at least 1/2 tooth out on the injection pump, so the car is much smoother now. Worth the time and effort.
I'd say enjoy, but it's a nasty, nasty job!
Richard
-
Jon
Handy hint here, don't laugh.
A great tool for the square hole in the tensioner adjuster is the square rod usually found linking the 2 handles in a domestic internal door! Just the right size for the tensioner adjuster.
AlanS will be proud of me for suggesting this, but its what I used last time I did a diesel belt!!!!
[:0]
A great tool for the square hole in the tensioner adjuster is the square rod usually found linking the 2 handles in a domestic internal door! Just the right size for the tensioner adjuster.
AlanS will be proud of me for suggesting this, but its what I used last time I did a diesel belt!!!!
[:0]
This forum is brilliant! 
I thought I'd log back on to see if anyone had replied, thinking it was probably a bit early for replies! Ha!
I'll print off all this excellent advice born of experience to have with me. I shall now stop being such a wimp and make a start sometime this week hopefully, you guys having given me that missing confidence boost. If I get stuck I know you're there!
The internet at its best!
P.S. If anyone wants to know about MK2 diesel Carlton's I have 11 years of knowledge destined to slowly decompose!
I thought I'd log back on to see if anyone had replied, thinking it was probably a bit early for replies! Ha!
I'll print off all this excellent advice born of experience to have with me. I shall now stop being such a wimp and make a start sometime this week hopefully, you guys having given me that missing confidence boost. If I get stuck I know you're there!
The internet at its best!
P.S. If anyone wants to know about MK2 diesel Carlton's I have 11 years of knowledge destined to slowly decompose!
Hi, everybody!
Each time I replace timing belt I replace also crankshaft and camshaft oil returners. Not expensive parts, a little more job, but save you a lot of troubles if failure. Morever-in my previous car I find a groove on crankshaft which was caused by old rubber+saund grains included. The following repair is much more expencive (speedi sleevs used). [:D]
Each time I replace timing belt I replace also crankshaft and camshaft oil returners. Not expensive parts, a little more job, but save you a lot of troubles if failure. Morever-in my previous car I find a groove on crankshaft which was caused by old rubber+saund grains included. The following repair is much more expencive (speedi sleevs used). [:D]
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
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- My Cars:
- x 2
Richard, I find it easier to remove the turbo inlet pipe than the outlet, and its the inlet pipe on the bolt on timing cover version that totaly obscures the 11mm rear cover bolt, its the outlet that looks like the real bugger to me thats why I only loosen its clip.
Neil, when you stick the new belt on pay particular attention to the belt run between the injection pump and the crankshaft, it passes over the idler roller on its way and I suspect when people get it wrong they do so mostly in this area, you don't want any apprechiable slack in the belt between these three pulleys as you slide the belt on.
Before you finaly set the belt tension via the spring loaded pulley, be sure to turn the engine forwards by hand and stop it without letting it go backwards under compression, if it goes backwards prior to setting the tension you may cause slack in the belt on what should be the tight side, the tension put on would then be false.
Dave
Neil, when you stick the new belt on pay particular attention to the belt run between the injection pump and the crankshaft, it passes over the idler roller on its way and I suspect when people get it wrong they do so mostly in this area, you don't want any apprechiable slack in the belt between these three pulleys as you slide the belt on.
Before you finaly set the belt tension via the spring loaded pulley, be sure to turn the engine forwards by hand and stop it without letting it go backwards under compression, if it goes backwards prior to setting the tension you may cause slack in the belt on what should be the tight side, the tension put on would then be false.
Dave
-
RichardW
- Forum Treasurer
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'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl - x 996
Dave,
On my car (assume they're all the same!) the inlet pipe is the one which comes across the top of the rocker cover and finishes up being the lower of the two at the turbo - this can't be removed withot first removing the other, higher pipe, which is the outlet pipe and leads to the intercooler. You are right to think this lower pipe is a bugger to get off - but it's even harder to get back on, especially when you don't realise the engine has rocked backwards a bit and if you refit the engine mount you will get an extra 40mm - makes all the difference (not as hard as getting the inlet pipe back on a turbo on a BX though)!
Anyway, suffice to say "take off the higher of the two turbo pipes" - the inlet/outlet argument is fairly academic!!
Richard
On my car (assume they're all the same!) the inlet pipe is the one which comes across the top of the rocker cover and finishes up being the lower of the two at the turbo - this can't be removed withot first removing the other, higher pipe, which is the outlet pipe and leads to the intercooler. You are right to think this lower pipe is a bugger to get off - but it's even harder to get back on, especially when you don't realise the engine has rocked backwards a bit and if you refit the engine mount you will get an extra 40mm - makes all the difference (not as hard as getting the inlet pipe back on a turbo on a BX though)!
Anyway, suffice to say "take off the higher of the two turbo pipes" - the inlet/outlet argument is fairly academic!!
Richard
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Neil T</i>
2. .... With car in 5th gear and someone on the brake pedal, slacken the crankshaft pulley retaining nut.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
What have I do in the case of automatic gear?[V]
2. .... With car in 5th gear and someone on the brake pedal, slacken the crankshaft pulley retaining nut.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
What have I do in the case of automatic gear?[V]