AL4 rough 1st gear to 2nd gear shifting

lancia58 · Unread post by **lancia58** » 27 Apr 2011, 17:59

In my Xantias ( AL4 gear box ) very often the shifting form the 1st gear to 2nd gear is not smooth, is there anything that can be done ? As a first step I am about to change the gear box oil . The car has 78000 miles and three years ago on 50000 miles the ATF was changed. I read in this forum that it may help. I read that replacing the valves to the Borg Warner valves may help ?

I found this link that claims for AL4 repair kits
http://www.sonnax.com/product-lines/tra ... nit%5D=204
Does any one know something about it. Although it is written Renault it is applicable for Citroën AL4 as well for example
http://www.sonnax.com/system/new-announ ... 40-01K.pdf

Thanks
Zohar

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 27 Apr 2011, 21:13

http://www.peugeotlogic.com/workshop/ws ... lenoid.htm

Is a simple guide with good information - except the magnet change isn't necessary IMO.

Cheapest electrovalves for me (probably for your location also) are from Genuine-Parts in Germany however I buy about €300 worth of parts at a time to justify DHL costs.

Otherwise you can buy in quantities of six from Raymond at AliExpress:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/902366/ ... 57416.html
(Note: I don't know if these are genuine, but am tempted to buy some and see.)

lancia58 · Unread post by **lancia58** » 28 Apr 2011, 04:41

Thank you for the valuable information, at current when connect my Lexia 3 no fault is read from the AL4 ECU, so I guess the cause can not be diagnosed by the AL4 ECU, and since I own the car ( 18 month) I didn’t see the sports and snow lights flashing.Anyway I’ll do the tests specified in the link you sent. Regarding the electrovalves if no AL4 failure is reported can the electrovalves still be defective ? How often the ATF should be changed ? I am going to do that anyway. Four years ago I owned a brand new Citroen C4 that is also equipped with the AL4 and it had the same and even worse 1st gear to 2nd gear rough shifting.
BTW I called the importer of the Esso ATF and he told me that they sell packs that contains 20 1 liter boxes and provide me with contact info of a reseller , so hope today find out the pricing.

Thanks
Zohar

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 28 Apr 2011, 10:03

Every 40K kilometres is the figure used here as a rough guide to fluid drain/replacement.

You may help the transmission's life with a larger heat exchanger if there is one available. Perhaps from a C5 break?

With the error codes, if no faults are stored for the AL4 then it is not considering those shifts to be "faulty" even if they are harsh. It may be that some of the six other electrovalves are getting a little sticky with age/fluid deterioration.

You should look for the software version - someone may be able to confirm if it has been updated yet.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 28 Apr 2011, 10:25

Excellent stuff! That's some incredibly valuable information Adam

Any idea of the cost of these Electrovalves in the UK?

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 28 Apr 2011, 11:50

They're cheap - under the Renault part number (visible in the Chinese bloke's advert), the top two will likely be cheaper than from PSA.

The other six are not so commonly replaced and therefore a less competitive pricing applies. The complete valve body assemblies are another thing worth investigating, one step shy of a full rebuild.

lancia58 · Unread post by **lancia58** » 28 Apr 2011, 12:49

I had a brand new C4 that is equipped with the AL4 and from day one it had the same problem of rough shifting from 1st to 2nd gear, when it shifted from 1st to 2nd there was a very noticeable bang. Can it be that whatever I do the shifting will stay rough ? Is there a clear reason for the rough shifting ?

Thanks
Zohar

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 28 Apr 2011, 17:56

lancia58 wrote: and from day one it had the same problem of rough shifting from 1st to 2nd gear, when it shifted from 1st to 2nd there was a very noticeable bang.

That seems incredible Zohar

I can't imagine that all AL4 'boxes are like that but having no direct experience of 'em I cannot say. All i can say is that their big brother 4HP20 suffers no such issues and that 'box works on very similar lines. In fact the 4HP20 has the opposite problem to a small extent, the change from 2nd down to first under heavy braking can be a tiny bit rough at times.

The reason, I suspect, is that the hydraulic line pressure to operate the internal brakes and clutches is switched to a high pressure in 1st gear and switches to a lower pressure in 2nd and subsequent gears. The change of gear coinciding with a change of line pressure may give the symptom of the rough change.

As I say, I know little of the AL4 but the line pressure control electrovalve does seem a weak point and if they are not expensive then it's worth a shot.

I'm not sure how easy it is to get at the valve block to swap it. the valve block is under the cover on the front of the gearbox and whether or not you can do the job in-situ depends on how much room there is between the cover and any obstructions that would prevent the cover coming off and the valve block being removable. So often it's necessary (and easier) to lift the gearbox out of the car...

lancia58 · Unread post by **lancia58** » 28 Apr 2011, 18:24

I knew others with a brand new C4 that had the same problem with the gear shift. Recently my brother in law purchase a brand you C4 Picasso and when he drove me I noticed the same bang when the AL4 shifts from 1st to the 2nd . On the other hand I have a friend with a 2001 Xantia with 137000 miles that all shifts are smooth.

Zohar

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 28 Apr 2011, 21:20

The valve block may be removed or replaced "in situ". It requires removal only of the battery box and air filter components.

Worth draining the fluid first, for least mess. Also clean around the cover gasket and DO NOT remove the top right mounting screw as viewed from the front - it holds the shift spring in location.

Take care upon refitting, to index the shuttle valve groove with the shift actuator pin.

lancia58 · Unread post by **lancia58** » 07 May 2011, 18:18

Hi

Using my Lexia 3 I recalibrated the acceleration pedal and it softens the 1st to 2nd gear shift a lot. Does this mean that the TPS potentiometer is worn ? How can it be tested , I guess that if it is worn it will be much more pronounced at its middle of travel where in most driving cases the potentiometer is positioned.

Thanks
Zohar

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 07 May 2011, 23:46

The only test I know for this type of item is non-official, uses some audio test equipment and requires removing the potentiometer.

Put a 2KHz (approx) sine wave signal through the TPS and into an amplifier/speaker, so that turning its shaft acts as a volume control. Poor tracking will show up as crackling sounds from the speaker. If these crackles happen at exactly the same point every test, then you have problems with signal coherence and the unit may be either in need of dismantling/cleaning or replacement.

Cheers, Adam.

lancia58 · Unread post by **lancia58** » 08 May 2011, 04:28

Hi Adam

Do you have the pin out of the TPS ? Is there a way to test it with a simple multimeter ?

Thanks
Zohar

ex-vaux · Unread post by **ex-vaux** » 22 Aug 2011, 17:24

Dont know if this is a factor, but having driven my wife's 406 2.0 petrol with 165k on it then driving a 110 HDI with the same AL4 box with only 90k I was surprised at how rough the latter's gear changes were.

My wife's car is silky smooth in every situation despite its age. I did read somewhere, that the higher torque of the diesel engines may have been a factor in early bath's for some of their AL4 gearboxes, as early as 70k in some instances! Seemingly much earlier demise than the petrol engined models.

Also, the engine temp of the diesel is apparantly slightly lower than the petrol and has a corresponding effect through the heat exchanger and hence the gearbox fluid which may be a factor in the ECU overheat counter causing the flashing snow light?

I did talk to a guy who had fitted an engine oil cooler to his HDI auto (used as a taxi) as he had heard it helped in keeping the general overall temperature of the oil lower and hence the coolant down, therefore not exchanging heat down the chain to the auto box!
i
Of course, it could just be coincidence, but hot ATF fluid is not very efficient and neither is below temp ATF fluid either.

Just a thought