C5 Questions

Quackers · Post by **Quackers** » 13 Apr 2011, 20:54

Been looking at C5's Mark II, and read reviews comments etc, and now have a few questions that hopefully someone will be able to comment on.

I think i want a 2.0 16v HDI Exclusive with the Navidrive pack or at a push a VTX+ as this comes with the Navidrive as standard still baffled as to why its only an option on the Exclusive and not standard, just makes finding one harder.

So the questions...

1.) Is the 2.2 HDI engine a no no? Seems to be a lot of comments about the particulate filter thing costing a fortune and the 2.0 is better because it does not have this, am i correct?

2.) Anybody have any experience of the 1.6 HDI engine? Parkers has it down as fast 0-60 as the 2.2 HDI which seems mad to me, does it feel under powered on a such a big car? Fuel usage seems a lot better on the 1.6 according the stats. Coming from a 2.0 Turbo Activa i do not want to feel like i have no power, and i have never owned anything less than a 1.9 D

3.) Are there any common faults with the Mark II C5? or anything to look out for when viewing one to buy?

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 13 Apr 2011, 21:20

1) The C5II only came with the 2.2HDi 136 engine and an automatic box, the 136 2.2 was not available as a manual in the C5II. The 2.2 173 HDi is however and seems to prove quite reliable, though as they didnt sell in big numbers complaints will be few anyway.

2)Ive not drievn a 1.6HDi C5, I have driven them in C4s and found them ok but not quick. The 1.6 should not compare to the 2.2 for performance, though many do say it feels quicker. If your looking at C5II spcs then the 2.2 will be automatics and the 1.6 a manual, which will explain the performance thing. Ive heard mixed reviews, some people say you would never tell its a 1.6, though engine size has little to do with it as it has the same power but very slightly less torque than the previous 2.0HDi 110 8v.

If your going for a VTX+ my advice would be to dig out a 2.2 173bhp HDi. As the VTX+ was only available with the 1.6HDi or 173 2.2HDi. The 1.6HDi is the only diesel facelift which is a 5 speed box, 2.0 and 173 2.2s are 6 speed, making the car even more refined and economical. Its a shame the 2.0 138 was not available in the VTX+.

If your going for exclusive id say get the 2.0HDi 138, it seems the best of both worlds, good performance but good economy and they are fairly easy to find too. My uncle has a 56 2.0HDi 138 16v Exclusive C5, its quite nice but avoid dark exterior colours (unless it has leather) as it comes with one of the worst interiors (odd fabric in too light a colour, you even get light carpets!) ive seen on a modern car. His does have satnav, im pretty sure every Exclusive in a C5II has sat nav? If not most do have it. They also have front and rear parking sensors, turning xenon headlights, electric folding door mirrors and a few other bits.

The VTX+ is as the VTR and has the same interior trim (I like it) but it has voice recognition with colour satnav and CD changer. I was not bothered about getting a VTX+ as the satnav does not do postcodes. Its easy enough to plug in the tom tom ...

I have a 2.0HDi 138 VTR and an Activa, the Activa is quicker but the C5 is quite sprightly actually, probably wouldnt be left behind by the Activa by too much (on the straights!). 0-60 in 9.9 seconds i believe! Much quicker than the same engine in a C5III ...

If you have to go for a VTX+ and cant find a 2.2 173, you could always test drive the 1.6 and see how you get on with it.

I went with the VTR spec and I like that, I bought the car at the same time a smy uncle bought the above mentioned Exclusive. When I compare the two im very glad I didnt buy his and got mine due to its interior and in my opinion it has some pointless spec which will be a pain if they go wrong or break. Id certainly not want to buy a £900 headlight!
VTR is mid spec, well one down from Exclusive depending on year as the VTX+ was a later spec. It has everything I need and more, dual zone climate control, cruise control, auto lights and wipers, etc.

3) The C5II is said to be a very well sorted car, to my knowledge there are no real C5II specific things over the C5I, they are improved. Be aware of the DMF and check the clutch on the test drive, make sure there are no odd noises or juddering from it. Give the car a good drive and use the rev range to see if its driving right. I almost bought one which would not rev.

We have had our 05reg estate (again 2.0 138 HDi) for over 18 months, its done 24K miles in that time and has not been any problems at all. Ive had my 56reg hatch for 4 months and its been stunningly reliable, ive not had to do anything with it at all, mind its like a new car with its mileage.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 13 Apr 2011, 21:32

I am sure that Citroenmad will give you chapter and verse on this but here are some pointers.

MK11's as far as I know all MKII's have FAPS.

2.2 There are two 2.2's the early 136 and the later 2006 on 173 hp version.
The 136hp 2.2 has earned a reputation for problems with the FAP however in my opinion this is an undeserved rep based upon a combination of ignorance by owners and garages and greed by the trade. The 2.2 136 in a MKII will have no more or less problems with the FAP than the 2.0 ltr.
However the 136 2.2 has a reputation for being very thirsty at least in the MK 1 cars, it maybe be slightly better in this respect on MK11's because of changes introduced with the MkII. The 173 hp engine is much more economical and by such limited reports by those that have them would appear to be a very good engine definitely the one to go for if absolute economy is not the priority.

Know what you mean about trying to find an Exclusive trim car with the Navidrive.

Most reports that I have read about the 1.6 are quite positive though one or two have expressed a desire for a bit more go when heavily laden.

In my opinion clutch and flywheels are a weak point on all manuals, failure of both well before 100K seem to be quite common.
Seem to me that turbo failures on the 1.6 is more common than on the 2.0 or 2.2

cachaciero

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 13 Apr 2011, 21:50

Your right, all C5IIs do have FAPs, all BUT the 1.6HDi in Design trim level - this was based on the 1.6HDi LX, it has black rubbing strips and LX interior, but it has the alloy wheels from the earlier VTRs and a couple of other goodies. Fairly rare spec but if your wanting the most hassle free C5II, this will be it, possible ...

As your also right, turbo failure on the 1.6 is not unknown. However this can be put down to long serivce intervals and lack of servicing. As far as I gather the oil feed pipes to the turbo are thin, if the oil gets dirty and thickens there is less of a flow and the turbo gets less lubrication, causing a failure.

The 2.0 16v does seem a hardy unit with far less reports of any issues. Id say you would need to be unlucky to get any real issues.

DMF is an iffy subject, im sure usage of the clutch plays a big factor here. Treat it right and it should last, or at least last longer. There are varying reports of DMF failure mileages. It is the main concern I have on them, but its not the end of the world if it does give up. Get one with a clutch that feels nice, with a good height to the bite point, that should give you a good start.

The Exclusive I mentioned above has an incredibly high bite, im sure it wont be long before it needs a new clutch(its on 75K), high bite is to do with friction plate wear due to poor driving techniques, though this is bound to have a knock on effect to the flywheel.

When Ive been looking around at other cars and other forums to get a good grasp of their reliability, I still come back to C5s as their engines and mechanicals seem among the best.

There are many improvements from the C5I on the C5II, they drive better, quality is on the whole better and its a much nicer looking car with a better range of engines. A very nice car, I still would not swap mine for anything else, i cant fault it, nor can I find anything which does as much so well.

mooseshaver · Post by **mooseshaver** » 13 Apr 2011, 22:03

my mk2 1.6 Hdi vs my mk1 2.2, they do have the same acceleration, but the 1.6 seems very eager to go.
Overtaking is not as good in the 1.6. Also as others have said when fully loaded it does seem to be slower, but the 2.2 never seemed to notice.
The 1.6 is an aluminium head so it sound noisy. Or thats the reason I'm told. My 2.2 was quieter. Its not bad, just something there all the time, and its still more quiet than a friend's 1.9 tdi.
Fuel economy most of the time on short journeys is 10mpg more than the 2.2. Tax is cheap.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 13 Apr 2011, 22:11

The 1.6HDi is used in a lot of cars: BWM Mini Coper'D, Ford Fiesta, Ford Focus, Peugeot 207, Peugeot 307, Peugeot 407, the Citroens etc. There are many of them out on the road and the reports of failures are few, so they must be good!

I forgot to mention economy, my 2.0HDi 138 averages between 48 - 50. I drive it quickly but do a lot of motorway miles which it seems to thrive on. If I spend a lot of time around town economy drops by a couple, but its still good. Our estate with the same engine does 46-48MPG but that it always loaded down with stuff for my dads business. Im extremely impressed with the economy for such a big, refined and fairly brisk car.

I used to get 43/44 out of my 110 HDi 8v C5.

On the size thing, the C5 is noticeably larger than the Xant.

Quackers · Post by **Quackers** » 13 Apr 2011, 22:21

Thanks for the responses so far very useful, lots of info to take in.

What are the Diesel Autos like for reliability? Part of me misses the Auto from when a had a V6 Xantia.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 13 Apr 2011, 22:42

Citroenmad wrote:1)
If your going for a VTX+ my advice would be to dig out a 2.2 173bhp HDi. As the VTX+ was only available with the 1.6HDi or 173 2.2HDi.

Oh! really!? look at this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2005-55-Citroen-C ... 483f383ac4
That looks awfully like a 2Ltr VTX+

Seriously it does say that it's a VTR but add the Navidrive and it's hard to see any difference and there are a few like this out there.

cachaciero

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 13 Apr 2011, 22:45

cachaciero wrote:
Citroenmad wrote:1)
If your going for a VTX+ my advice would be to dig out a 2.2 173bhp HDi. As the VTX+ was only available with the 1.6HDi or 173 2.2HDi.

Oh! really!? look at this
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2005-55-Citroën-C ... 483f383ac4
That looks awfully like a 2Ltr VTX+

Seriously it does say that it's a VTR but add the Navidrive and it's hard to see any difference and there are a few like this out there.

cachaciero

That is just a VTR with optional sat nav. Pretty much every option was available on the VTR, parking pack, sat nav, lane departure etc.

Also, in 55 plate the VTX+ was not available, which probably explains why its got the spec it has. Saying that, if a 2.0 was wanted and satnav, it was either a VTR with an option ticked or an Exclusive that was needed.

There are a few VTRs with the navidrive option, ive also seen a few with the directional xenons and the parking pack too. Often these are 54/05 reg cars which were Citroen cars from new.

Its also worth noting that spec has nothing to do with H3+ being fitted, it was engine dependent and neither 1.6 or 2.0 138 has it fitted, in any spec.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 13 Apr 2011, 22:58

Seems I was talking rubbish, there are many C5 Exclusives without sat nav, im surprised.

This is an interesting colour combo:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2006-Citroen-C5-E ... 339wt_1139

I cant remember seeing a C5 that colour, optional leather on it too, no navidrive. Interesting how from a certain angle it looks quite like a Ford Fiesta

After a brief look around on the net, the perfect spec C5 seems to be (for me at least and covering your desire for a Navidrive) a 2.0HDi 138 VTR with optional navidrive or a 2.0HDi Exclusive with optional navidrive and leather to get rid of that exclusive interior trim which I just can't get away with in either dark or light shades, looks like the material from my Grans sofa!

Otherwise a VTX+ with either 1.6 or 2.2 173. I believe the 173 was also available in the Exclusive, though that is a rare model, very rare.

Quackers · Post by **Quackers** » 14 Apr 2011, 08:31

After thinking last night, if both the 2.0 and the 2.2 in the Mark II's have this Particulate Filter i may as well go for the 2.2 with the 173 BHP.

Looking on Autotrader, almost a 1000 C5's for sale and not one is the 2.2 Exclusive 173BHP with Navidrive Option

There is 1 136BHP one. Looks like i am going to have to play the waiting game!

Its very odd looking a Citroéns web site from 2005/2006 and downloading the PDF spec sheet its as if the 2.2 does not exist! As its not listed anywhere.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 14 Apr 2011, 09:51

I think I might have seen one 173 Exclusive for sale, maybe. You will be extremely lucky to find one, especially with the optional navidrive too. If your wanting a 173 then its most likely going to be a VTX+ - at least it has the Navidrive system you want.

Something like this

Or this one

After looking C5IIs with navidrive don't seem that common with anything above the 1.6HDi.

There are a good few like this 1.6HDi VTX+

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 14 Apr 2011, 10:10

Citroenmad wrote:The 1.6HDi is used in a lot of cars: BWM Mini Coper'D, Ford Fiesta, Ford Focus, Peugeot 207, Peugeot 307, Peugeot 407, the Citroëns etc. There are many of them out on the road and the reports of failures are few, so they must be good!

Also, Volvo (through ford), Mazda (Through Ford) use the 1600 HDi... so there will be pleanty of spare engines to find in the futre!!

Paul

Post by **RichardW** » 14 Apr 2011, 12:19

Pay particular attention to the clutch.... if there's an hint of squeak on engine on / off, judder or noise on take up, or noise when the pedal is depressed - negotiate hard on the price! The clutch and DMF for the 2.0 HDI 138 si £400 (cheapest) parts only

It's a bit of a git to fit as well, you'd be lucky to see much change out of £1k at the garage

There's also no solid flywheel conversion available for this engine currently.

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 14 Apr 2011, 19:18

cachaciero