Cold idle problem - Xantia 1.9TD following use of BioDiesel

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Rhothgar
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Cold idle problem - Xantia 1.9TD following use of BioDiesel

Post by Rhothgar »

Guys

Woe is me!

Have been using neat Bio for last two fill ups.

Was not particularly happy with a return of 35 mpg for a price of £1.05 a litre as this was equating to 45 mpg in real terms when compared to fuel costing £1.36 a litre.

Filled up with tank of diesel 2/3 days ago. This morning I noticed and pronounced and frequent 50 rpm pulsing on cold start which goes away after 2 minutes of driving (to the nearest traffic lights).

Time for a fuel filter change or new car?
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Post by citronut »

check/replace you fuel filter,

i have a freing who had a FLEAC Y, a couple of years back he was useing bio all the time,

he would buy 20lt drums from Rye oil and stock pile them and use them as required,

he had endless running isues, every time it played up we fitted a new filter,

one of which i place in a funnel over my waste oil drum to let it drain out,

i looked at it a couple of days later and it was still full/heavy and a very thich sticky goooo was weaping from the drain valve,


regards malcolm
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Post by Spaces »

Loads of commercially available bio-diesel is poor quality - soaps remaining, partially converted, methanol remaining etc. The basestock may be of low quality also. Poor bio will cause endless problems and eventual damage, as will any sub-standard fuel.

If the bio is good, however, the only problem will be its solvent action on the deposits left by years of running on diesel - these will be lifted from the tank and lines and necessitate a fuel change, or two if you're unlucky. Old old cars without modern seals will suffer from bio-d, but there is 5% or more bio in commercial diesel to help old seals on their way.

Since loads of energy is removed from veg oil in bio-d manufacture (in the form of glycerine) then a little mpg loss is expected, but it can vary from car to car and some engines/styles of driving actually see an improvement in economy. Many computers give false readings on bio-diesel because of its different viscosity.
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Post by Xaccers »

That's one of the reasons why I won't put bio anywhere near my cars, and I can get SVO cheaper (I think I've seen bio around here at something like £1.20L whereas I get my SVO for £1.01L)

No problems running on SVO, hunts a bit when cold but that soon clears up. I get the same MPG as on diesel.

If you've run on vegetable matter then as has been said, check your fuel filter, and also the mesh of the fuel sender in the tank, under the driver's side rear seat.
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Post by modxl »

where do u get ur svo for 1.01 a litre
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Post by Rhothgar »

I hope a filter change sirts this out! Didn't think for one minute that Bio quality could be poor. Guy seems very thorough and frequently has a sample bottle on view. It's probably diesel!!!
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Post by CitroJim »

Rhothgar wrote: frequently has a sample bottle on view. It's probably diesel!!!
Or something else :roll:

I've stripped a pump or two that have run on Bio, one being a Lucas EPIC. It was covered in a nasty, sticky residue and other I've seen have been rusty and one Bosch, which I suspect only of having run bio was lunched good and proper.

Making bio is a very skilled chemistry job and as you point out Spaces, there's plenty that can and does go wrong with the process. Each batch must be carefully titrated to establish the correct amounts of methanol and NaOH to use in the reaction. If you get it a bit wrong then undesirable by-products will remain and neither are good for pumps.

I'm 100% with Xac here, SVO is very trouble-free apart from the initial tank scouring plugging the filter. Xac and I have seen inside his engine and it was immaculate after running on SVO for an extended period. Likewise the pump and the only reason it came apart was for a reseal as the SVO will eventually do for the seals as they were not rated for SVO/Bio and it attacks them over a period of time. New seals are Bio and SVO proof, being made of Viton. In the pump itself, there was no discernable wear at all.

So, use SVO with impunity but be very wary of bio diesel. When it's good it's Ok but bad stuff is terrible.
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Post by Xaccers »

modxl wrote:where do u get ur svo for 1.01 a litre
Costco, that's the highest it's been, normally it's around 75p
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Post by robert_e_smart »

Honestly this amazes me, it says Diesel on the filler flap, diesel in the owners manual, why use anything other than Diesel!

If you're too tight to use white diesel, use Red, and maybe be prepared for the the 1 in a million chance of being caught by VOSA. You'll save more than the fine or the value of your Xantia and not have any running issues!

Might I add here, I don't use agricultural diesel in any of my cars.
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Post by CitroJim »

Unlike a petrol engine, a compression ignition engine can run on anything that can be burned under intense heat and pressure. Basically anything that contains hydrogen* and can be atomised and injected. Diesel (or more correctly DERV) is just one fuel for them. One of Rudolf Diesel's engines ran on coal dust and his plan all along was for them to run on vegetable-based oils.

Fundamentally, if the injection pump can atomise it and inject it, it'll run and produce power. Clearly there are issues with the injection equipment of a modern DI engine and polymerisation problems when running veg.

The old Lister engines used world-wide for power generation and water pumping are well known for being able to run on virtually anything!

So, for an IDI with a Bosch like the XUD, SVO is a fine fuel for it.

Running red diesel is not a good idea. HMRC are red-hot on it and if they catch you, it's very serious indeed. Not worth the risk. They're as keen as mustard as there's rather a lot of duty avoidance going on, not only with red diesel but with white as well. Red diesel stains so even iof you use one tankful the signs will be there for a long tine and they can still do you for it.

beware of red diesel that's been de-dyed. It looks Ok but the process of removing the dye also destroys the lubricity of it and then say bye bye to your pump :twisted:

* EDIT: Except water of course, despite containing plenty of hydrogen it's not useful as a compression ignition engine fuel...
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Post by Rhothgar »

Great advice and somewhat clearer than my first understandings of SVO / Bio.

It's right what they say. Learn by your mistakes!

Going to nip up to my mates and swap out the fuel filter and bang a jar of Forte Diesel Clean Up in the filter housing. It's reputed to be the best stuff around.

That will clean any rubbish from all the internals from filter housing, pump and injectors. Any that doesn't get burnt, is returned to the tank, allegedly.
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Post by Rhothgar »

OH DEAR!
OH DEAR!
OH DEAR!

I have just taken the fuel filter out and to describe it as 'mashed' is an understatement!

I have taken a video of it and will upload it to YouTube later for anyone who is interested.

There is lots of some gunk at the base of the fuel filter housing and can only be described as like tooth tartar but brown. Feels almost gritty.

OH DEAR!
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Post by Xaccers »

Probably a lot of dirt from the tank pulled through by the thicker fuel, definitely check the mesh on the fuel sender.

Fuel filter wise, I've seen 2 types for the xantia, the type halfords sell with a metal plate on the base and visible filter paper all around, fuel is sucked through the paper into the base then up through the central shaft. This is the type to go for.
The one to avoid is basically a large tube with a holey top that sucks fuel up through it, it's made of plastic and the filter paper is held in with a bead of glue around the bottom.
The glue breaks down, the filter paper swells and expands which in turn deforms the tube locking it in the filter housing.
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Post by DickieG »

Rhothgar wrote:There is lots of some gunk at the base of the fuel filter housing and can only be described as like tooth tartar but brown. Feels almost gritty.
Is the gunk anything like the mess that's on the gauze on the picture of a diesel tank pick-up?

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1996 Citroen Xantia 1.9TD SX S1 - N707 MGP (Currrently laid up)
2000 Citroen Xantia 2.0 HDi S2 - X435 JGJ VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff] (Clutch died Dec 2017 - Resurrected Easter Sunday 2021)
1997 Citroen ZX SX TD - P788 AJL
1959 Landrover Defender S2 - Two owners from new
1968 Triumph Vitesse Convertible 2.0
1980 Ford Escort RS2000 Customer - 2nd Owner
1988 Saab 900 T16S - A 1980's exercise in understated Hooliganism...
Oh! and two Harley Davidsons - A 1990 Sportster and a 2003 Fatboy 100th Anniversary (the only vehicle I have owned from new)
x 78

Post by Rhothgar »

Thanks for that, Dickie G. I'll strip that out later and have a quick look.
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