Why did Citroën offer more automatic choice ?

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 12 Mar 2011, 14:54

I was thinking about this a few months ago.

If you cast your minds back to the mid 90's, you may recall the relatively rare ZX 1.9D Automatic. I believe this had the lovely fully mechanical 4 speed auto box the same as the 205 / 405 had (if someone could confirm that please?) , notice the lack of 306 D auto

Looking a bit newer, there was Xantia 1.9D and TD with an auto, again where is the 406TD auto ? , as far as I am aware these Xantia's and 406's had the later electronic box.

It must of been different perceived markets, as ultimately the parts bin was the same.

Thoughts appreciated as always.

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 12 Mar 2011, 16:26

Perhaps different market ideas; I believe the AL4 was further not considered ideal for many diesels due to torque handling (in)ability.

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 12 Mar 2011, 17:23

I did wonder, but I think that's what is fitted to the 1.9 Xantia's.

In theory, you would think an auto box and a diesel engine would match up as neither like high rpm really, but it does not appear to be that simple unfortunately. Could be worse at least we have not been exposed to the CVT type of box's yet, at least as far as I am aware.

I think the ZX had the older (cannot remember what type, ZF maybe?) mechanical 4 speed unit, the same as fitted to 205 / early 306's / 405's, obviously ratios would be a bit different, or at least the final drive.

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 12 Mar 2011, 17:29

I wouldn't mind an auto TD Xantia, especially if it was a CVT!

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 12 Mar 2011, 18:25

Ah, that is a thing as CVT's don't appear to work (so I am told) with larger engines, hence you see them usually fitted to the 1.4 ish engine sizes. Larger units tend to have a more usual autobox.

MikeT · Unread post by **MikeT** » 12 Mar 2011, 18:33

spider wrote:Ah, that is a thing as CVT's don't appear to work (so I am told) with larger engines...

That's their achilese heel, more's the pity IMO!

robert_e_smart · Unread post by **robert_e_smart** » 12 Mar 2011, 20:45

Ah, that is a thing as CVT's don't appear to work (so I am told) with larger engines, hence you see them usually fitted to the 1.4 ish engine sizes.

Not the case, my last boss had an Audi A8 3.0 V6 with a CVT auto transmission, and it worked very very well.

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:04

robert_e_smart wrote: Not the case, my last boss had an Audi A8 3.0 V6 with a CVT auto transmission, and it worked very very well.

Really ? , well I'll eat my words then

Last I heard years ago (well about ten years ago I think) is they just did not work properly with large engines. I think it was Ford that only used them on the smaller engined cars at the time.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:09

The 406 Coupe was offered with a 2.2HDi Diesel and a 4HP20. I know as I have bits of the 2.2 HDi diesel 'box on my Old V6. One such is the torque converter and it really does not suit a big petrol.

Well, it does as it turns it into a veritable drag racer...

The downside is that it makes some gearchanges a little jerky under some circumstances.

I too am surprised at the poor showing of autos on a lot of vehicles. Why no 110 HDi Auto with either the AL4 or the 4HP20?

I've never driven an AL4 and would love to. A back-to back comparison with an AL4 equipped 1.9TD and 16V petrol Xantia would, I'm sure, be telling...

The 2.0 TCT engine was originally designed for use with an autobox and hence it has a broad power band from idling to redline, a characteristic ideal for driving an autobox via a torque convertor. As the 2.0 TCT feels like a diesel, it's hard to see why so few diesel autos were offered.

Was the 2.1TD ever offered with an autobox in the XM?

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:24

CitroJim wrote:The 406 Coupe was offered with a 2.2HDi Diesel and a 4HP20. I know as I have bits of the 2.2 HDi diesel 'box on my Old V6. One such is the torque converter and it really does not suit a big petrol...

Jim, I mentioned you box to a chap over on the Coupe forum and he alerted me to a fact I hadn't noticed....

The Coupé (or the Saloon/Estate for that matter) was never offered with an auto box at all when fitted with the 2.2HDi.

Which means I'm struggling to work out where yours has come from.

2.0 used the AL4 and the V6 the 4HP20. The Saloon was offered with an auto in 2.0 HDi form but I'm not sure which this would be. ServiceBox suggest that too was the AL4 but I'm not keen on trusting it as it seems vague.

Unread post by **xantia_v6** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:32

Toby_HDi wrote: The Coupé (or the Saloon/Estate for that matter) was never offered with an auto box at all when fitted with the 2.2HDi.

Which means I'm struggling to work out where yours has come from.

Peugeot 607? I think these had 2.2 with automatic transmission option.

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 12 Mar 2011, 21:41

CitroJim wrote:
I too am surprised at the poor showing of autos on a lot of vehicles. Why no 110 HDi Auto with either the AL4 or the 4HP20?

Was the 2.1TD ever offered with an autobox in the XM?

You can get a 2.0HDi 110 automatic in a C5, not sure what box it uses mind.

The majority of 2.1TD Xms are automatics, I think at one point Citroen even made the auto a standard gearbox and the manual was an option.

2.1TD manuals are fairly rare compared to the autos. Possibly partly due to the 4 pedal arrangement on the Xms and the nature of the car.

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 12 Mar 2011, 22:43

Jim, wanna book a holiday?

(You'll be bringing over panel cuts, subframe cuts etc as excess baggage...)

Then you can see the AL4 in "full flight" yourself: Cruise, smooth... LURCH! ...cruise...smooth

robert_e_smart · Unread post by **robert_e_smart** » 12 Mar 2011, 22:43

Was the 2.1TD ever offered with an autobox in the XM?

As Chris says, most 2.1 XMs are autos (my favourite

!)

Its slow, but it suits the Xm so well. I wish my TD Xantia was an automatic, changing gear is a chore!

TCT Auto Xms are very common as well. I have had both a TCT manual and TCT Auto Xm (both were white was well). The Manual is a lot quicker, but it works very well also.

2.2 HDI C5s were Autos mainly as well.

Aren't a lot of the new smaller Citroen Automatics false automatics. With some sort of electronic trickery operating a manual gearbox set up to do as an automatic would do, but without a torque converter?

R9UKE · Unread post by **R9UKE** » 12 Mar 2011, 22:50

robert_e_smart wrote: Aren't a lot of the new smaller Citroën Automatics false automatics. With some sort of electronic trickery operating a manual gearbox set up to do as an automatic would do, but without a torque converter?

I believe they call it the Sensodrive???

Horrible, horrible gearbox. I drove a C3 Exclusive for a few weeks after I passed my test. The 1.6 engine would have been a nice meaty performer if it wasn't for this severe handicap.

Doesn't pull itself forward when the brake is released, gear changes are slow and jerky and there's no PARK position, so the handbrake still has to be used

And manual mode is even worse. There's a good 2 second delay after toggling the flappy paddle to change, confirmed by a nice jerk!!

Not one for me I'm afraid...