Would you ever buy a just out of warranty modern car now?

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 10:43

Just been reading this thread... http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=34797

...and it just cements my fear of the modern car, not just Citroen, but ALL makes and models.
They are all quite simply, far too complicated for DIY, with far too much ridiculous and uneccessary gadgetery on them now, just waiting to go wrong usually.
They all virtually totally rely on plug in diagnostics now.
Main dealers don't even have mechanics anymore. They're 'technicians'.

relying on what the diagnostics tell them, and then they just simply....and I use that word loosely...replace what the screen tells them is wrong, usually at a horrendous cost to the consumer.
Is this a cunning ploy by the manufacturers to price repairs of a ..say..4-8 year old car off the road, and into an early grave, with the hope that this will force folk into buying another new car?

spider · Post by **spider** » 12 Mar 2011, 11:55

Yes and no, although warranties are useful they are not the be all and end all of it.

I myself just do not like multiplexing, to be fair I was 'around' when it started to appear, the very first were partly not fully multiplexed and quite reliable. Of course when this changed to fully multiplexed it did not. It took few years (in my opinion) before it became reliable.

I recall seeing a running fault on one, and all the diagnosis kit said was "mixture regulation fault", nothing more. Well, I could of more or less said that by how it was running without needing a machine

, did not say how to fix or what was at fault though.

To be fair, in general multiplexing does save time fault finding, however the problem is once you start to get corrosion / resistance into wiring, the multiplexing itself could cause issues that would not happen if it were not mx'ed, so you are adding complexity.

Another case in point is the Com2K although again to be fair these have improved enormously over the first ones fitted around 2000 or so. Still it is an expensive piece of switch gear compared to a single stalk / flasher unit / wiper relay which hardly ever caused problems.

Its to cut down on diagnosis time, as it is not cheaper to produce a mx'ed car than one without, at least as far as I am aware, given the extra's needed. Coupled with the extended service intervals, this reduces the TCO over say three years, which will please the bulk fleet buyers no end as their vehicles are replaced at three years max, if not two.

No I'm not a hater

, I do like them I just have some odd idea's sometimes, so I am told anyway

HDI · Post by **HDI** » 12 Mar 2011, 12:08

Much of this problem has been forced by legislation for fuel economy and safety. Manufacturers now have to reduce their corporate average emissions and fuel consumption by legislated targets and also appear as safe as possible in the euro ncap safety testing procedure.

At the same time they know that consumers are easily tempted by gadgets and technology so they fill cars with as much of this unnecessary complication as possible. Consumers of course expect it all at a low price so they get it but at a price, the price is reliability and durability.

To provide all this stuff and meet safety and environmental requirements at a price acceptable to the consumer, quality suffers.
The electronics can't be the best available at the price they need to meet so the systems just can't be as reliable or last as long. Same applies to the myriad of electro mechanical devices needed to provide functionality for all the gadgets. Wiring harnesses are one of the weakest links, generally speaking manufacturers use the cheapest, nastiest cable possible. If the average car's harness is compared to a motorsport or aviation grade version the contrast is stark.

All most manufacturers are interested in is getting the vehicles upto the expiry of the warranty at the minimum cost to themselves as possible.

Also, as cars become more plagued with these difficult and expensive to trace and cure faults as possible the more the consumer becomes indoctrinated with the cycle of a buying a new car every 2 or 3 years. This puts there cast offs in the uneconomical to repair category thus supporting a continuous sales platform for the manufacturers.

Hopefully my Xantia Hdi will keep going for another few years, it's at 180K miles now, but what to get next ? I know it won't be a C5 though.

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 13:46

Plugs, points. condensors, ahhhhhhh, they were the days ey?

rmunns · Post by **rmunns** » 12 Mar 2011, 13:50

If I had floating money I'd buy up a couple of estate Xantia Hdi's with low miles / owners and put them in store to call on when mine expires.
I mean, how cheap motoring would this be! Say £1500 for 10 years' trouble-free.

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 13:53

Really though. Are customers REALLY gagging for auto lights on , auto windscreen wipers, auto lane departure devices, auto one push electric windows, auto climate control, auto self cleaning dpf's, etc etc.

I know I can survive without all this troublesome unreliable and expensive to repair nonsense, in fact, I do actually quite like manual wind down windows.
I can feel a 2CV coming on here you know!

HDI · Post by **HDI** » 12 Mar 2011, 14:08

C.J. wrote:Really though. Are customers REALLY gagging for auto lights on , auto windscreen wipers, auto lane departure devices, auto one push electric windows, auto climate control, auto self cleaning dpf's, etc etc.

They are by the time they've been indoctrinated by the hype !

C.J. · Post by **C.J.** » 12 Mar 2011, 14:12

HDI wrote:
C.J. wrote:Really though. Are customers REALLY gagging for auto lights on , auto windscreen wipers, auto lane departure devices, auto one push electric windows, auto climate control, auto self cleaning dpf's, etc etc.

They are by the time they've been indoctrinated by the hype !

I refuse to be hoodwinked.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 12 Mar 2011, 14:37

I wouldn't have a modern car at all - even if I could afford one, I have spent 50 years or more running cars on which pretty well everything is mechanical and I have been able repaired them myself, the 2.0 Hdi is about as modern as I'm likely to get, and that under protest.

Peter

HDI · Post by **HDI** » 12 Mar 2011, 14:54

One solution I've been considering is installing an XUD into a much older car, one with the bare minimum of complications. Then maybe keeping a few XUD's in stock as service replacements !

Imagine an XUD in say a Morris Minor !!!

spider · Post by **spider** » 12 Mar 2011, 15:00

HDI wrote:One solution I've been considering is installing an XUD into a much older car, one with the bare minimum of complications. Then maybe keeping a few XUD's in stock as service replacements !

Imagine an XUD in say a Morris Minor !!!

I think that's been done

I did think about a 206D and removing DW8 and dropping in an XUD instead but the thought of the insurance people using it as an excuse to add an unfair amount to the premium put me off. It does fit quite well from what I hear as its almost the same as the DW8 anyway.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 12 Mar 2011, 15:04

Years ago I used to run Morris minor vans and quite liked them, a friend of mine bought a car a little while back and I took it for an MOT, it came as quite a culture shock, I couldn't wait to get back into my quiet, smooth, comfortable Citroen - I think I will give Minors a miss.

I have fitted diesels into quite a lot of other cars over the years though, before you could buy decent ones.

I Peugeot 405 is a nice simple comfortable, quite, fairly rust free and economical car, best value available in my opinion.

Peter

Post by **myglaren** » 12 Mar 2011, 15:10

C.J. wrote:Plugs, points. condensors, ahhhhhhh, they were the days ey?

Absolutely!
A complete pain, as I recall.

I had any amount of 'older' cars that were never anything but trouble, spent more time f****ng around with them than I did working.

The first somewhat reliable car was my GS - although the rear brake disk did need replacing after the first run out - sheared off at the boss and clamped solidly in the caliper. Pads - what pads?
Changing that led to replacing almost every hydraulic pipe and union on the car.

Apart from that is was fine

That was followed by more heaps as I couldn't afford another Citroen at the time.
That was false economy!

The Xantia was my first really reliable car and cost me next to nothing - usual wear and tear stuff and a heater matrix.
Written off by an absconding milkman in the middle of the night.

BX didn't last long - blew a head gasket and cracked the head while it was away on holiday.

Visa was great and lasted ages, was very inexpensive in regard to parts and fuel but I wouldn't class it as 'reliable' although it only let me down once.

Next was - a Honda Accord, again trouble free, only needed brake discs & pads, tyres and a back box - oh, and a radiator.
Again, written off in a collision.

Looking at it now, the C5 has cost more than those two combined. £3258.91 in parts and servicing since I bought it on the 16th of March 2007 - almost as much as I paid for it.

Diesel has cost £4067.67 and the tank is empty again now

rmunns · Post by **rmunns** » 12 Mar 2011, 15:52

Peter N. Quite agree with what you say, but not the Morris Minor bit, please. Arrrrgghhh. 46 years, 64 cars but no MM's.

Post by **myglaren** » 12 Mar 2011, 16:07

rmunns wrote:Peter N. Quite agree with what you say, but not the Morris Minor bit, please. Arrrrgghhh. 46 years, 64 cars but no MM's.

My dad had two.
He loved them but I can't see why, horrible noisy uncomfortable things.