cooling fans issue Xsara hdi 90bhp dw10 year 2000 with a/c

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 04 Mar 2011, 08:52

hi guys i have a xsara and i have problems with the STOP sign and teh red light above the temp gauge.

My fans are working, as i have unplugged the blue temp sensor, and the fans come on, and they go off again when i plug it back in, assuming my engine is not overheating.

i have no overheating issues with the car

however, i have what seems to be an intermittent fault.

the stop sign and the light above the temp gauge flash, and i also sometimes hear an audible beep (but only sometimes)

these dash lights come on, usually when i am doing low speeds, i.e. coming off the autobahn, or i nteh city.

i have noticed that whenever the dash lights are on, the cooling fans are running.

i have also noticed that if i would like these dash lights to come on, (just for fun) i turn on the AC (i have mechanical air conditioning, not climate control) and the dash lights come on.

these dash lights then go off as soon as i turn off the air conditioning.

these lights also come on (sometimes) on engine startup from cold, which also prooves that this has nothing to do with any overheating issue.

i am not loosing any fluids, coolant levels are fine.

the air con is not working by the way, but i do not want to spend much money fixing this issue, as now is not a good time for me moneywise.

here are a few pics of the car, if this is any help:

https://picasaweb.google.com/edmondkell ... anProbleme#

https://picasaweb.google.com/edmondkelleher/Xsara#

here is a video i took of the problem quite some time ago, forget my commentary, as it is no longer relevant, i did not know very much about this issue when i took this video, but at least you get to see the dash light behavior from this video.

if there is any more info that i can provide to help us come closer to a resolution, just ask.

thanks very much,
Ed

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 04 Mar 2011, 14:34

Welcome to our fan troubles, Ed.

From experiences with the Xantia, I’d say that the fans don’t work at low speed and only go to high speed like when you unplug the blue sensor.
The fans must go to low speed as soon as the aircon is turned on, and not flash lights instead.
Normal engine cooling is done at low fan speed, and high speed is for emergency cooling only.

This topic is the best start to exploring cooling fan foibles:
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=31403

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 04 Mar 2011, 20:24

SPOT ON Clogz!

Thats just about right there... this happens a lot on S2 Xantias...

Paul

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 05 Mar 2011, 01:58

one thing to note, when teh stop sign and the red light come on, the fans are also on simultaneously.

but i am not sure if they are on full speed or on low speed

in this case, do you think it is the stepup/step down switch that needs replacing? i.e. the black box under the green relay switches in this photo:

https://picasaweb.google.com/edmondkell ... 2189558610

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 05 Mar 2011, 09:16

If you pull out each of those relays, you may well find a corroded connector in the socket... I managed to get the terminal out be a bit of damage to the plug, get enough wire to put another terminal on, and push it onto the relay, then pushed the relay back into place.. and it worked fine after!!

It helps that I work in a Cable, wire and terminal industry...

The "Black Box" IS part of the cooling Fan house and is not seperate...but it will be were the problem is comming from...

Paul

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 05 Mar 2011, 11:02

tanks for the help guys

i have an update:

i have unplugged the tem sensor to learn that the fans come on at high speed automatically, from what i have learned on this forum, they should firstly go to low speed, and then high speed after a couple of seconds.

what does this suggest?

any ideas

thanks

ed

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 05 Mar 2011, 13:12

It suggests a faulty fan.

Try turning the fans with a stick through the grill with aircon running.
If they then start spinning, you will have felt which one is ‘loosest’ with worn brushes.

Relay faults usually cause loss of low speed on both fans, and only one fan going to high speed.
Since you have both fans going to high speed, all three relays are working.
The only exception to that is the centre pin of the middle relay being faulty, which is less likely than worn brushes.

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 05 Mar 2011, 16:13

clogzz ur a star, thanks for the advice.

i have tried exactly what u said, i switched on the air conditioning, and the then noticed that the stop light comes on, and i go outside the car, notice that the cooling fans are not running.

i get my pen and help the fans, they start spinning at low speed, which i guess is correct.

does this mean that the switch over relay is working ok, and that the motors for the fans are the culprit in this case?

thanks for all yer help guys, i feel like i am coming closer to solving this issue.

thanks very much

ed

Clogzz wrote:It suggests a faulty fan.

Try turning the fans with a stick through the grill with aircon running.
If they then start spinning, you will have felt which one is ‘loosest’ with worn brushes.

Relay faults usually cause loss of low speed on both fans, and only one fan going to high speed.
Since you have both fans going to high speed, all three relays are working.
The only exception to that is the centre pin of the middle relay being faulty, which is less likely than worn brushes.

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 05 Mar 2011, 16:53

Yes, both fans at low speed is normal with the air conditioning on.
Both fans at high speed is an emergency situation for when the engine is at risk of overheating.

The switch-over relay is working normally in that it passes the current without being energised.
The current goes from pin 30 to pin 87a at low speed, and from 30 to 87 at high speed, when the relay is energised.

The motors only get 6 volts at low speed, and 12 V at high speed.
The motor that starts spinning when helped with the pen is the faulty one.

You may be able to confirm this by prodding the motors with the air conditioning and fans turned off.
The motor that spins most freely is the faulty one, because it has less friction from the worn brushes.

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 06 Mar 2011, 08:10

both fans come on no problem when high speed is required i.e. when i plug out the blue sensor.

but when i turn on th eair conditioning none of the two fans come on.

since they come on with a little help form a pin, does this suggest that the switch over realy is ok and does NOT need replaciing?

thanks clogzz!

Clogzz wrote:Yes, both fans at low speed is normal with the air conditioning on.
Both fans at high speed is an emergency situation for when the engine is at risk of overheating.

The switch-over relay is working normally in that it passes the current without being energised.
The current goes from pin 30 to pin 87a at low speed, and from 30 to 87 at high speed, when the relay is energised.

The motors only get 6 volts at low speed, and 12 V at high speed.
The motor that starts spinning when helped with the pen is the faulty one.

You may be able to confirm this by prodding the motors with the air conditioning and fans turned off.
The motor that spins most freely is the faulty one, because it has less friction from the worn brushes.

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 06 Mar 2011, 09:05

both fans come on no problem when high speed is required i.e. when i plug out the blue sensor.

but when i turn on th eair conditioning none of the two fans come on.

since they come on with a little help form a pin, does this suggest that the switch over realy is ok and does NOT need replaciing?

thanks clogzz!

Clogzz wrote:Yes, both fans at low speed is normal with the air conditioning on.
Both fans at high speed is an emergency situation for when the engine is at risk of overheating.

The switch-over relay is working normally in that it passes the current without being energised.
The current goes from pin 30 to pin 87a at low speed, and from 30 to 87 at high speed, when the relay is energised.

The motors only get 6 volts at low speed, and 12 V at high speed.
The motor that starts spinning when helped with the pen is the faulty one.

You may be able to confirm this by prodding the motors with the air conditioning and fans turned off.
The motor that spins most freely is the faulty one, because it has less friction from the worn brushes.

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 06 Mar 2011, 10:15

cloggz, just one other question, is it possible to buy just the motors for the afans on there own, or must i buy teh entire fan housing i.e. this part here:

http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto ... tm?ca=15_s

is there a part number on it somewhere so that i can ibe sure that i am talking about teh right part!

thanks

ed

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 06 Mar 2011, 11:07

Yes, it means that the change-over relay is good and doesn’t need replacing.
The fan that needs helping along with a pin is faulty and needs replacing, obviously from a wreck.
Another member just fixed his intermittent fan by gently tapping all around it to reseat the brushes.

The linked picture shows an assembly for 200€ that says to include the radiator.
You need one fan motor only, and it says ‘possibilité de vendre séparément’, meaning can be sold separately.
The radiator would cost 80€ and the ‘fan’ (singular) cost 120€, hoping they mean the assembly with two fans and no radiator.

I don’t know about part numbers, there are many fans and the power ratings and part numbers even depend on where the cars were sent.
To properly function at low speed, the fans ideally would need to be identical ones.

VertVega · Post by **VertVega** » 06 Mar 2011, 11:33

If any help from my experience

... I have replaced mine from a scrap car.
I paid 30 € only for the used fan motor. A brand new one would have price tag x 5.

Both original and the replacement were ECIA and 250W.

One more thing to remember: The fan blade screw in the center has left handed (negative) threads.

eurotrotter · Post by **eurotrotter** » 06 Mar 2011, 15:05

are un in the uk, that was a great deal, i am in germany and it is impossible to get parts for any french car here

the minture u mention ur drivin a Citroen or a pug here they put on this funny'its not german face'.

looks like il have to buy off ebay.

were you able to take the fan out of the car in ur local scrappy or were the parts already dismantled for you?

what is the name of your scrappy, i might ring him to see if they send parts by post, and get it sent over!

thanks
ed

VertVega wrote:If any help from my experience ... I have replaced mine from a scrap car.
I paid 30 € only for the used fan motor. A brand new one would have price tag x 5.

Both original and the replacement were ECIA and 250W.

One more thing to remember: The fan blade screw in the center has left handed (negative) threads.