New drivers and towing is so confusing any ideas please?

[falling-out-with-my-car]

Hi, my Son has now been driving nearly four years that is he passed his driving test nearly four years ago.
he would like to be able to tow a small box trailer behind his citroen AX but he swears blind that he is not allowed to tow a trailer of any kind.

are their any new drivers out there actually towing a trailer like this and did you need to take a second test?

I have looked this up online and the rules are sooooo confusing, nothing in the world of DVLA seems to be clear and consice anymore.

can anyone set the record straight please?

thank you in advance

regards Nigel.

[addo]

It looks like unless the trailer's weight is over 750kg, he's OK on a basic licence. Heavier trailers require a separate prac test.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr ... G_10013073

[citroenxm]

His Picture liecense will tell all as it will show the class's he can drive.

I think new drivers CANNOT tow at all without a second test.. of course he could be naughty and chance it.. but thats not a good idea.

Paul

[handyman]

This looks like the bit of the regs that is relevant to your son.

"Car licences obtained on or after 1 January 1997

If you passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 you're limited to vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes maximum authorised mass towing a trailer up to 750kgs, or a vehicle and trailer combination up to 3.5 tonnes MAM providing the MAM of the trailer doesn't exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. You will need to pass an additional driving test in B+E if you wish to tow a caravan or trailer combination which exceeds these weight limits."

Seems he can tow but only up to the weight limit of 750kgs and it cannot be a large towing vehicle, due to the all up weight of combined vehicle and trailer. Unless he passes an additional test.

I know I am lucky to be an old codger who passed his tests in the days of Hengist Pod. Seems like DVLA has a creative licencing department finding new ways to get even more money out of us, to support their jobs and pensions and help to bale out the country or pay merchant bankers (silent W) bonuses.

Creeping regulations that I have become aware of just by chance recently include the fleecing of drivers every ten years, to get another copy of their licence and the regs that came in on 1st Jan, that you cannot retain a RFL on a vehicle that is no longer insured!

I, luckily, still have an old paper licence that is current and does not need renewal until I get to sixty-five, so I still have a way to go. My wife had to renew hers last year due to this ten year rule, so we sent the same photo as on her existing licence. Nothing was mentioned by DVLA and the 'updated' licence was sent to her. Apparently, the reason we need to renew our licences every ten years is in case we have changed our appearance.

I wonder what they have in store for us in the future?

Handyman

[den169]

Just another way of stealling off the motorists.

[wheeler]

Being a youngster myself i had to do my category B+E test to enable me to tow large trailers so i know a bit about this. Im typing from a mobile just now so will expand a bit more later but basically you CAN tow a trailer bigger than 750kg with a standard category B licence but it depends on the weight of the car your using for towing. It is quite confusing.

[DHallworth]

As long as the combined mass of the vehicle and trailer don't exceed 3.5 tons then you are OK on a normal car licence.

If the combined mass of the car and trailer exceeds 3.5 tons with or without load on the trailer then you do need to do a trailer test separately.

If I tow our trailer with the Range Rover I'm only allowed 4 bags of sand on it before I'm over the weight limit.

A box trailer behind a normal car will be fine.

David.

[HDI]

Personally I'm in complete agreement with towing restrictions and would go even further. To tow ANY caravan should require an additional test to be passed, there are too many idiots about to be left to their own judgement.
Recently I had to go on a driver awareness course as a result of a speed tax camera. During this course I was staggered at the level ignorance and outright incompetence of most of the candidates.So these towing regs will keep us a bit safer from the likes of these muppetts.

[handyman]

Hi HDI, irrespective of why you were on this course, doesn't it underline the need for some form of catching the idiots we allow on the roads? Your experience with these other 'drivers' in some way justifies the need for a way of catching them and showing them the errors of their ways.

Personally, I think the DVLA give out driving licences too easily and the training that learner drivers go through is wholly inadequate given the piece of machinery that they subsequently are allowed to control.

In addition, we create a culture that sees the 'car' as the new idol to be worshipped above all else and muppets (allegedly) like the high priest Clarkson do nothing to dispell all the myths.

Towing, skid pan training, off road driving, roadside repairs, night-time and motorway driving should all be part of the test. They should even throw in sleep deprivation to show what happens when you fall asleep whilst driving.

I'd even allow in psychological assessment to get all the hotheaded bods with personality problems out of the training. But, hey, I'd probably not get my licence back!

Handyman

[DickieG]

Playing devils advocate here;

Hi HDI, irrespective of why you were on this course, doesn't it underline the need for some form of catching the idiots we allow on the roads? Your experience with these other 'drivers' in some way justifies the need for a way of catching them and showing them the errors of their ways.

Then you'd need to employ loads more Traffic Police at more public expense when at the moment they are a very quickly dying breed/almost extinct.

Personally, I think the DVLA give out driving licences too easily and the training that learner drivers go through is wholly inadequate given the piece of machinery that they subsequently are allowed to control.

Not as easy as you think, I know that the DSA are always looking at ways to improve test drive standards, hence the latest requirement to be able to follow route signs etc. One idea they considered was to reduce the number of faults you are allowed to make during the test but they worked out that that would only reduce the number of females passing as they generally make more minor errors than males whereas the greatest concern relates to young males driving recklessly and killing/maiming people

Towing, skid pan training, off road driving, roadside repairs, night-time and motorway driving should all be part of the test. They should even throw in sleep deprivation to show what happens when you fall asleep whilst driving.

How many people need to tow or would remember how to many years down the line?

Skid pan training is a waste of time with modern cars as they are all fitted with ESP type systems, should you lose control of a car fitted with ESP then brace yourself for impact.

What use is off road training to the everyday driver?

Training people how to drive whilst suffering from sleep deprivation is akin to saying that its OK train whilst under the influence of alcolhol, if however you fall asleep whilst at the wheel you will eventually crash,,,, do you need training to realise that?

I'd even allow in psychological assessment to get all the hotheaded bods with personality problems out of the training.

Great but then think about the implications of the number of appeals based purely on the opinion of a "Shink".

A difficult subject that always raises more questions than answers.

[handyman]

Yes Dickie, very nice to pick out all the obvious targets and miss the real culprit, the Culture Of Car, that pervades many of the things we do and how we live our lives.

Its a shame we see driving as a one time test, for most of us, rather than an acquired skill that requires training, improvement and on-going testing. Many younger drivers I know see it as a right rather than a skill to be earned and respected.

My list of additional areas of training and testing were as examples, not specifics, to illustrate the need to train for the un-expected rather than the mundane and ordinary. I am sure you witnessed many sad cases in our recent flurries of snow where even tarts in Chelsea tractors got stuck. As for ESP and even ABS, I'd go for the big spike in the middle of the steering column as a way to focus on safe and moderated driving.

As for right of appeal against psychological testing failure. Why would you want to do that? But then I always thought Ghengis Kahn a bit too left wing!

Handyman

[Citroenmad]

An interesting thread!

I do agree that training should be on going and the current pass plus should be made compulsory and not an option. At least this gives newly passed drivers more experience of driving in different conditions and areas.

I agree that a lot of people pass they think thats it they can now drive a car and they are experts, usually they crash. I know someone who passed a few weeks ago, a week after passing hit another car and wrote it off. Someone else i know flipped their car on the roof a few days after doing a weeks intensive driving course. Etc etc.

It happens all too often and it does go to prove that people are not as clued up about driving, cars in general or how dangerous the thing they are driving is.

Car maintenance, or rather the lack of, and having any mechanical sympathy also seems out of reach for far too many people.

A skid pan should be a definite for a new driver, so yes new cars have ESP and ABS with EBD, which should be treat as being a bit like an air bag, its there in an emergency and should not be relied on! A skid pan will, hopefully, give better understanding on how a car can handle and how to gain control or lessen an impact should things go wrong.

Id go as far to say more drivers than not dont have the right abilities to drive in adverse weather conditions such as snow and ice. The fluffy a few months ago proved that, people getting stuck far too easily, crashing and relying too much on their cars safety features.

And besides, a lot of first cars are cheap and basic small engined cars with no ESP or ABS. Knowing how a car perform and and handles is not made up for by the fact some cars have such safety features.

As for the towing, ive looked into that myself and found that on a basic car licence a car and trailer weighing up to 3.5 ton can be driven. Obviously the trailer can not exceed the towing weight of the car.

A psychological testing phase does possibly seem a bit extreme, but common sense and logicality should be tested. Im sure some people were not made to drive a car! Harsh .... maybe.

[HDI]

Hi HDI, irrespective of why you were on this course, doesn't it underline the need for some form of catching the idiots we allow on the roads? Your experience with these other 'drivers' in some way justifies the need for a way of catching them and showing them the errors of their ways.

Personally, I think the DVLA give out driving licences too easily and the training that learner drivers go through is wholly inadequate given the piece of machinery that they subsequently are allowed to control.

Handyman

Don't get me wrong, generally I agree with you.
What surprised me on that course was just how many of the candidates were misguided and had no grasp of driving itself and the use of the road.
What also surprised was the age bias, mostly middle aged to older people
and predominately male. There was one new driver, 18 and only had his licence for 8 months, and 4 female out of a group of 30.

Things I take for granted were a complete mystery to most of this group !

Interesting the electronic driver aid issue has been mentioned. It was part of the agenda on this course. The person conducting the course asked if anyone knew what ABS was and the benefits it gave. I knew the answer but decided to keep quiet and see what people knew.

A number seemed to know what ABS stood for, fewer knew it reduced braking distances and after a long silence only myself and one other raised our hands simultaneously to say it allows hazard avoidance by permitting heavy braking AND steering at the same time.

There was a video clip to demonstrate this and most were totally amazed !!!

So what hope is there of people understanding electronic stability systems ?!

Generally though, IMHO the most common driving faults are lack of observation and anticipation.

[wheeler]

Well it's kind of already bee said but as long as the combined weight of the car/van + trailer is not more than 3.5 tonnes and the trailer is not heavier than the car then you can tow it on a normal category B licence. If the car/van already weighs 3.5 tonnes without the trailer then you can still tow a trailer up to 750kg with it.
Obvously this depends on if the gross train weight of the car will allow it. On the AX in question there is no way the GTW will be anywhere near 3.5 tonnes so if your towing a trailer with it thats legal for the car then you can legally tow it on a category B licence.

[addo]

Being an AX in question, the other pertinent aspect is to avoid the tail wagging the dog.

People have a habit (here, at least) of overloading a trailer; coupled with under-experienced piloting this causes interesting results.

The extra fuel chewed up when towing, is a good incentive to minimise it!