C4 Picasso V F*** Focus C Max comments plse

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C4 Picasso V F*** Focus C Max comments plse

Post by cachaciero »

O.K well still mulling over getting rid of my C5, it has been suggested that something that might meet my requirements was a C4 Picasso, which on paper I quite liked the look of, however they don't have hydro pneumatic suspension and they don't do the 1.6 with a "proper" auto box only EGS and there don't seem to be such a wide availability in the 4-6K range.
Anyway went toe look at one today to see it in the flesh so to speak, parked next to it was a Focus C Max 1.6, Auto Box on the face of it a near identical motorcar. Now normally there would not be any competition but once you have mentally crossed the "I must have hydro-pneumatic issue" largely because Citroen are walking away from it and it isn't an option on the C4 then one does ask the question why not a Focus?

Answers in less than 10 lines please.


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Post by Johnny Cogs »

Touran!!! :)
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Post by Peter.N. »

I have heard that C Max auto boxes self destruct.
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Post by ACTIVE8 »

Get the C4 GP Exclusive! 8-)

Which has features the lower ones do not which include......

Tinted Rear Glass (Factory fit on all windows behind the "B" post...edit...note this is also laminated glass)
Opening Rear Window (Separate from the tailgate)
Panoramic Roof (Option)
Rear Vents (In B Pillar, air con and heating)
Rear Suspension (Which raises and lowers, this is an air suspension set up, sorry no LHM)

Also the C4 GP has more features, details, storage etc than the C Max, it has won alot of praise if not awards, and has more style than a C Max, yes I have looked around a C Max, but it appears smaller, and is a shrunk Galaxy with nice trims on the front arches.

Stick with a Citroen!......It makes more sense!...... (This is the tenth line) :wink:
Last edited by ACTIVE8 on 26 Jan 2011, 01:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by myglaren »

I can't speak for any other cars but I have a friend with a C4 GP and have been in it for short trips on a couple of occasions.
I quite like it, makes the C5 feel like a mini. Rides nicely and seems quite comfortable.
He and his family went to Poland in it over Christmas and everything went without drama.
His wife has only just passed her driving test and drove it from the south coast to north of Durham and was quite happy to do so.
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Post by Citroenmad »

Nothing wrong with a Ford!

The C-max uses some of the PSA diesels, so the 1.6TDCi and 2.0TDCi 140 is the same as what you will find in the C4 Picasso. Just dont get the dreadful 1.8 Ford diesel.
Ive not been in a C-Max, but know people with them who think they are brilliant cars.
I do like and prefer the C4 Picasso, they ride well and they look much more up to date than the Ford, good looking for an MPV, which isnt easy. Ive been in two C4 Picassos, they are nice cars, though it didnt feel especially big, though they are quite wide. They must be smaller than a C5 though.
The C-Max has been out much longer than the C4 Picasso, so there will be more choice and they will have dropped more in value.
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Post by myglaren »

Chris - the Picasso is a bit smaller than the C5 but the GP is ginormous.
He had a Picasso before the GP.
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Post by Citroenmad »

myglaren wrote:Chris - the Picasso is a bit smaller than the C5 but the GP is ginormous.
He had a Picasso before the GP.
The C4 GP is shorter than a C5 estate, but I think a bit wider:

C5 estate length: 4839
C5 Hatch length: 4745
C4 GP Length: 4590
C4 Picasso Length: 4470

C5 estate width - without mirrors: 1780
C4 GP - with mirrors: 2100

Because its so tall and bulky it might appear bigger. I cant find width of the C5 with mirrors, but im guessing the C4 GP might be similar or a bit wider. Would it be wider than a C4 hatch?

Edit:

Thought id look up the C8 too, as that is massive ...

C8 length: 4726
C8 width - with mirrors: 2194

So even that isnt as long as a C5 estate! Surprising.

I parked next to a new shape Vectra estate with the C5 estate the other day, i always thought the Vectra estate was huge, looks massively long. But with the cars just about lined up there was little or no difference. Obviously the C5 hides its size well.

Out of interest, the Xm estate is:

Length: 4963
Width: 2072 - with mirrors

Im pretty sure the C5 a fair bit wider than an Xm, I know it is as how i park them the C5 doesnt fit as well in the XMs space. So the C5 must be as wide as a C4 GP if not wider. Ill have to find measurements of the C5 with mirrors.

Ah,just realised id used C5 facelift figures, S1s are slightly shorter, mainly their nose.
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Post by cachaciero »

I guess I should have made it clear that I was talking about a C4 GP.

Been doing a little more research and it becomes blindingly obvious that to really reduce cost of ownership I would have to go back to a manual box, generally model for model in the Cit Peugeot ranges the manual box doesn't just give improved fuel consumption but it also drops a tax bracket.
If I discount an auto box that would put a C5 back in contention. :-)

So....My current thinking is Pug 407SW, 307SW C4 GP 5 seater, C5, maybe Focus C Max but unlikely the Pugs handle and ride better according to comparisons I have read and the C5 we'll take as read.
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Post by Citroenmad »

A C4 Gp 1.6HDi auto should give similar MPG to the manual, as it is a manual but with automated change?

Have you driven an EGS? Some people dont like them. I know someone who bought a range topping C4 Picasso 5 seat Exclusive and sold it within 6 months as they couldnt get away with the gearbox. Its tricky at first, as unlike a automatic there is no 'creep' feature, the clutch is either on or off. Gearchages are slow but quite smooth, if you use manual mode then they can be made almost seamless.

Hmmm, a C5II estate with 1.6HDi and VTR or VTX+ spec, now that would be nice ....

A lot of people seem to have proeblems with the 307, not sure why they should be worse than other Peugeots or Citroens though. The 2.0 8v HDi with 110 power got a FAP in that too.

I like the C4 GP, the 407SW is nice, even if the rear is a bit odd looking, the C5 estate, well we all know what i think to C5s! I do like them :lol:
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Post by cachaciero »

C5II 1.6 got to be VTX+ minimum Exclusive would be better or maybe not do they have H3+?

EGS no I havn't driven one yet and I see what you mean about consumption do they have a DMF i.e the same clutch as a normal manual?, have to say the lack of creep in modern traffic conditions is a bit of a bu**er without that I have to seriously question if EGS would be worth while, most diesels go a long way in third :-)

Pugs I don't know a lot about although I can't see that they can be much differnt to Cits. Quite like the looks of the 407SW particularly the back, might be nicer if the front overhang was a bit less but as it's mostly lightweight shock absorber ii shouldn't be a handling issue parking might be something else :-)

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Post by Citroenmad »

VTX+ is VTR but with CD changer and satnav. Exclusive has a few more toys, but beware of nasty interior! You wont get a 1.6HDi with Exclusive trim either, 2.0HDi and over. VTX+ is 1.6 or 2.2 173, no 2.0 138.

You also wont get a 1.6HDi with H3+, nor will you get a 2.0HDi with H3+. Though if your looking at Ford and Citroens without any hydraulics, that wont be a problem? As they still drive well but ride better than steel sprung cars, plus the advantages of self leveling are vast.

VTR is a very good spec, dual zone climate, cruise control, nice seats, alarm, auto wiper and lights etc etc.

Im not sure if the EGS will have a DMF, though im guessing it will have yes. Its possible with practice to get a slow creep, but it requires using the brake and just edging forward. Same as the sensodrive gearboxes in the petrol Pugs and Cits.

Actually the 407 has a very very similar overhand at the front to the C5, it just stands out more on the Peugeot.
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Post by cachaciero »

Well this thinking about a new car is brain taxing !! and has caused me a lot of soul searching.

Historically I have always for the most part bought large Cits, the integrated hydraulics, suspension brakes have always appealed to my sense of technical excellence.

Such cars were also very cheap on the secondhand market largely due to most people being put of by scare stories as regards hydraulics and suspension et al.
If one was not scared of this these cars CX's and XM's really represented fantastic value for money for the secondhand buyer.
My experience with the C5 has been disappointing and there is no way that this has represented anything like the same value for money that it's predecessors represented.

So where do we go now? once you accept that hydro pneumatic suspensions are virtually dead along with proper hydraulics the case for buying a secondhand Citroen has to be re-evaluated.
Once you do this particularly with a view to technology and reliability the waters become even murkier. One contender was the Pug 407SW at around about 70K these seem to have a plethora of problems, brakes, suspension wear DMF just to mention a few, there seems to be a lot of unhappy second Pug 407 owners, from what I have read it doesn't auger well for the C5 III.
Anyway found an interesting web site for one of the mechanical warranty companies which tabulates reliability, interestingly Citroen C5 came out better than Pug or Ford, German marques didn't seem to fare too well, the best ones not unsurprisingly were Honda and Toyota.

This has led me to look at the Avensis which from a style point of view is a bit bland and boring but the 2.2 Diesel out performs the PSA 2.2 by a considerable margin and the fuel consumption is not far short of the 1.6!!. Prices arn't bad eitherl Chain driven cams too, no eleastic bands to worry about.
Soooo.... thinking that before long I may have not just a C5 for sale but a Lexia too, though I suppose I'll have to fix the suspension pump before anyone would buy it :-)

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Post by Citroenmad »

Oh dear, I thought buying an Avensis involved selling your soul? :? :roll:

I know someone who has one as a company car, its reliable but they say its such a boring car.

Toyota use some PSA diesel engines, is the 2.2 not a PSA engine? Im not sure, and PSA dont do a 148 bhp 2.2, but it could well have had a few tweeks.

Why do you say the hydropneumatic suspension on the C5 is dead? It still offers much improved ride comfort over standard cars, tsomething you really realise when driving a coil sprung car. Its a reliable system on the C5, requiring very little maintenance. The safety and handling features of the self-leveling is still as good as it ever has been. Its far from dead.

Can't imagine a Avensis offering similar comfort in the ride department, i also hear they are not that refined for a large car.

I looked at a few Avensis's when looking for a large hatchback, and on paper it does everything i need and want from a car. However i just couldn't bring myself to buy one, not because they are bad cars, but its not very interesting.
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Post by cachaciero »

Is it that I am selling my soul or is it that my soul has been taken from me ?

Yes the C5 still has hydro pneumatic suspension, just, but I bet you will not find many C5 III 's on the secondhand market that will have it given that it's only available on the Exclusive trim level. So given that most fleet buyers which is where a large part of the secondhand car markets come from will be buying at VTR level or less my guess is that there won't be many about.

True there are quite a few C5 II 's about, all of which have a basic self leveling suspension but few have H3+ and none in the engine configuration I am considering. (although I believe that H3+ is probably retrofitable to most H3 cars)
In terms of ride comfort seems to me that my current C5 is more comfortable than some newish cars I have driven lately but not by much.

In general engineering terms there is nothing in the mechanical construction or design of the C5 which grabs my "engineering soul" in fact quite to the contrary, much of the suspension design and construction having been designed down to reduce cost to the point where failures are common at mileages which are generally unheard of in earlier generations, e.g rear arm bearings, suspension bushes etc etc.

When buying a secondhand car you have to think about what is likely to go wrong and how much is it going to cost. Well it seems to me that at 60K plus the average PSA car is coming up for a lot of major cost, DMF, Clutch, Rear Arm bearings, suspension bushes, Cam Belt add to that that many start to look internally tired at this mileage. This was not true of previous generations a 100K was nothing for an XM or Xantia and no one would have considered any of the above failures as likely to be major issues, in part because the parts concerned were better engineered or more substantial or because the normal service intervals being shorter items such as cambelts would have been addressed at least once before the second owner purchased the car.
To add to the above none of this considers the fact that on current generations of PSA cars there is a high degree of integration of electronic bits all of which have their own software, fine if that software is well written and works properly but the sad fact is that in some areas that isn't the case and in many instances PSA have walked away claiming that there arn't problems when in fact there are. These kinds of issues are virtually impossible to tackle simply because the software design specs are just not made available.

SO does the Avensis for example grab my "engineering soul" no it doesn't to the same degree that a CX did. However it seems to me that in respect of the engine at least the 148 HP 2.2 which is not a PSA unit as far as I know, they are well ahead of PSA it's quiter, smoother gets 48 MPG on the combined cycle and doesn't use elastic bands to drive the cam gear all this with a FAP system which is claimed to be maintenance free (Believe the 180bhp unit is even more remarkable). Of course there could be other "gotchers" which one only finds out after owning a car for a while.:-(

The two words which come out of most reviews of the Avensis are "boring" and "reliable", well if the car is boringly reliable with a reasonable ride comfort and handling ability and has most of the "toys" that my current car has and they work the same way every time then that works for me.

None of the forgoing means that I am going to buy an Avensis and not buy a C5II but it does illustrate some of the considerations which are taxing my single cell brain at the moment.

In short I have become historically accustomed to buying well engineered smooth riding well handling big cars for a pittance on the secondhand market, I am trying to find a current equivalent :-)
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