Vitara with PSA HDi engine

tobytronicstereophonic · Post by **tobytronicstereophonic** » 19 Jan 2011, 22:21

Hello, I am currently working on a 2005 (older shape) Suzuki Grand Vitara with the PSA HDi engine, code DWW 16v.
It was run low on oil (very) after a faulty turbocharger. It was repaired at the Suzuki main dealers. After the repair (£1000+), they helpfully informed him that the engine has probably sustained damage owing to the low oil level.
A few days after collecting the car from them, the low oil pressure light started to flicker at idle and now it is on constantly at sub 1100 RPM.
I would like to know please:
1. Is it a common problem on these engines (it's done 77,000 miles)?
2. Someone local has an 8v HDi engine (new-old-stock reconditioned, by Citroen, & very cheap).
3. Is the bottom end the same in the 8v as the 16v diesel regarding the crankshaft/connecting rods etc?
Or am I going to regret this option (I have rebuilt at least 30 XUD engines, but have no experience of the later diesels)?
4. I will obviously remove the sump after an oil pressure check to confirm damage etc.
Thank you, Ian.
Thanks for the first two replies: I wish I had never seen this site; I am starting to want a BX Gti 16v again!

Post by **Peter.N.** » 19 Jan 2011, 22:42

I have been running XUD engines for 20 years and like yourself have had little experience of the Hdi engines - until now, I have recently bought a 406 with a DW10 engine 2.0 litre 110 bhp. I know the first series of engines are all related but yours is the next on up.

Of the first series the DW10 seems the best engine, relatively simple and very durable, in my search I came across a number of cars with 300,000+ miles, mine has done 190,000 and still drives perfectly, so as a breed they seem to be good engines, I think PSA make the best probably because they have had more experience than most manufacturers.

I know this doesn't answer you question but does establish them as a reliable engine so I wouldn't think this is a common problem, sounds as though its down to neglect.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly who can give you a more satsfactory answer.

Peter

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 19 Jan 2011, 22:59

I can only offer the same amount of help as Peter, but the HDi 16v engines are generally very reliable and this is not a common problem.

I have heard of a 1.6HDi 16v having a turbo issue due to old oil and thin oil feed tubes the the turbo. However with regular oil changes this problem should be avoided and ive not heard of the same problem with the 2.0HDi 16v engine.

dieselnutjob · Post by **dieselnutjob** » 19 Jan 2011, 23:40

the chain that connects the two camshafts is tensioned by a piston that relies on oil pressure.
I would say that running it with low oil pressure risks causing slack in that chain, and if it snaps it is likely to bend valves.
The 16V engines are harder to work on because the inlet manifold covers the head bolts, and the injectors go through the inlet manifold.
So you have take the injectors out to take the inlet manifold off so that you can get to the head bolts.
The injectors are also quite long and sometimes get stuck.
But maybe that isn't an issue to work on the bottom end which is like an XUD I think.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 19 Jan 2011, 23:44

dieselnutjob wrote: The injectors are also quite long and sometimes get stuck.

So this goes for all 16V HDis, not just the early 2.2 136 engine? But the 1.6 and 2.0 16v too?

Post by **RichardW** » 20 Jan 2011, 08:39

Not sure of engine designation, but I think it's probably a 2.0 16V - tuned to 138 BHP in C5, but not sure in the Vitara. In which case, tha block appears to be different to the older 2.0 8V engines. Not to say of course that the head etc won't fit, but it's going to be a big job!

dieselnutjob · Post by **dieselnutjob** » 20 Jan 2011, 09:38

the early 2.0 16 valve engines were basically an 8 valve block with a 2.2 head on them, so I would expect so.
these are the 2.0 16 valve engines that make 110bhp as fitted to the late 806 and Expert vans.
I thought that this was the engine fitted to the Vitara but I'm not 100% sure.

The 2.0 16 valve that makes 138bhp as fitted to the 407 and I suppose C5 is a different engine and I know very little about them.
I know nothing about the 1.6 either.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 20 Jan 2011, 11:13

dieselnutjob wrote:the early 2.0 16 valve engines were basically an 8 valve block with a 2.2 head on them, so I would expect so.
these are the 2.0 16 valve engines that make 110bhp as fitted to the late 806 and Expert vans.
I thought that this was the engine fitted to the Vitara but I'm not 100% sure.

The 2.0 16 valve that makes 138bhp as fitted to the 407 and I suppose C5 is a different engine and I know very little about them.
I know nothing about the 1.6 either.

Ah, didnt know there was a 2.0 16v with 110 bhp.

I thought the 1.6 and 2.0 16 138 is a totally different engine yeah. Ive heard the injectors do not give the same removal issues as the earlier 2.2s.

What power has this Vitara got then? Is it a 2.0 16v 110 or 2.0 1v6 138?

HDI · Post by **HDI** » 20 Jan 2011, 12:15

There is an alternative option.
Drop the sump, remove the big end main caps and examine the crank bearing surfaces. If you are lucky they won't be too bad, if so replace the main and big end shells and it will probably go another 50K miles.

This advice is given from experience, I have had a couple of friends with performance Jap cars that have had turbo failure or run low on oil, they just didn't have the funds to repair or replace the engine so we did the above taking the 'we don't have much to lose' philosophy. In all cases the engines carried on fine !

The problem with a turbo failure is that the engine stands a good chance of ingesting lots of debris from the compressor wheel and into the oil from the turbo bearings.
Regardless though, my suggestion may do the trick.

dieselnutjob · Post by **dieselnutjob** » 20 Jan 2011, 17:06

HDI wrote:The problem with a turbo failure is that the engine stands a good chance of ingesting lots of debris from the compressor wheel and into the oil from the turbo bearings.

If so it may have stuffed the oil pump as that gets oil before it's filtered. Still, if you can get the sump off then I guess you can check out the oil pump easiy enough. The crank is the same as an XUD so the arrangement for the oil pump can't be that different.

tobytronicstereophonic · Post by **tobytronicstereophonic** » 20 Jan 2011, 17:50

A sincere thanks for all your suggestions. I am starting diagnosis and repair on Friday afternoon and will get back. I have put some engine flush in the oil, just to see if it improves things at all: it may have caused the oil light to extinguish at a slightly higher RPM, but this is more likely to be wishful thinking.

tobytronicstereophonic · Post by **tobytronicstereophonic** » 20 Jan 2011, 18:05

Thanks Diesel Nut for the info.
Not too sure of the power output: I have read it quoted as 90 and 110 bhp.
The oil light only comes on after about 10 minutes of running from stone cold by the way...
Probably due to oil thinning out as it gets warm.

KP · Post by KP » 20 Jan 2011, 19:22

There's a pug specialist near me who does lots of jobs on taxi car swapping the 16v unit for the 8v unit and they say for the vehicles that use them almost every connector swaps over and the few that remain just get blanket off. They do this as for some reason the 16v units gunk up and heavily carbon up the combustion chamber leading to ever worsening performance and economy! Being taxis I would imagine a lot of these are high milers and driven hard but it may offer you a good escape route if it's the 2.0litre engine your talking about.

tobytronicstereophonic · Post by **tobytronicstereophonic** » 20 Jan 2011, 19:28

tobytronicstereophonic wrote:Thanks Diesel Nut for the info.
Not too sure of the power output: I have read it quoted as 90 and 110 bhp.
The oil light only comes on after about 10 minutes of running from stone cold by the way...
Probably due to oil thinning out as it gets warm.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 20 Jan 2011, 19:30

A 90 or 110 16v would be a 1.6 HDi?

Though i think Vitaras are 2.0s, so it must be the earlier 2.0 16v, something i didnt know existed!