C5 Winter Tyre - Size and Speed

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picnmix
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C5 Winter Tyre - Size and Speed

Post by picnmix »

I'm thinking of getting some winter tyres for my C5 1.8i 2005 model. The standard tyre size & speed rating is 215/55R16 W but winter tyres aren't available in this size and speed.

Certain manufacturers (BMW, Audi, maybe others) specify an alternative tyre size & speed for winter tyres but it appears Citroen don't. I believe the car's "Certificate of Conformity" document would formally specify approved alternative tyre sizes but I don't have this.

Here's the thing, Direct Line insurance want an additional £42 premium for the 'modification' if the winter tyres aren't the same size and speed rating as specified by the manufacturer. If I didn't pay the extra and fitted winter tyres with for example a slower speed rating they would conceivably not pay any claim.

Anyone encountered this before?
HDI
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Post by HDI »

Ask a Tyre manufacturers advice and get it in writing.
This speed rating nonsense really irritates me, there is a 70 MPH speed limit in this country so almost any tyre will conform to that :wink:
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident :(
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP :(
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped :( )
& a couple of Peugeots !
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Post by handyman »

The speed rating marking on all tyres is not an inducement for drivers to travel at that speed. It should always be read in conjunction with the load index, ie, 88T, 91H, 93W, etc.

These markings are there to show the driver that the tyre is the correct load and speed rating as specified by the manufacturer. This is usually achieved both by design and testing, not just by guesswork, much as many ignorant drivers seem to think.

The load index will show itself in terms of flex of the sidewalls which helps the car's stability in cornering.

The speed rating will show itself in terms of deformation of the tyre through a range of speeds. The rating is a maximum.

The days of tyres being just black and round disappeared many years ago.

If you want to fit winter tyres on your car, go to a good independent tyre company and ask them for recommendations. Most tyre manufacturers offer standard fitments and accepted alternatives.

If your model of C5 was available with alternative sizes, then you can tell your insurance of these alternatives, especially if they are of the winter or M+S pattern. As conformity is an EU wide directive, you may find alternatives are standard fitment in more northern climes like Germany or Scandinavia. Winter tyres tend to be narrower than standard tyres, as they will perform better in adverse conditions.

Please bear in mind that Winter or M+S pattern tyres will offer better grip and handling, but will not allow you to travel at the same speed as you would in dry conditions. Weather conditions still require an additional input from the driver to temper their driving style to suit the road.

Handyman
Last edited by handyman on 05 Jan 2011, 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by myglaren »

handyman wrote:The speed rating marking on all tyres is not an inducement for drivers to travel at that speed.
Handyman
Yeah, I'd like to see my C5 do 168mph :!:
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Post by HDI »

I do understand the speed and load rating, but lets be realistic, 70 mph isn't going to be a problem for almost any tyre !!

Also, I'm aware that lots of naughty people exceed the very sensible, safe and adequate max speed limit, even though it has been established by those far more capable and knowledgable than us :-** :wink:

Modern tyres are engineered with such high safety margins that they will tolerate overload, overspeed and other abuse for a surprising amount of time. The insurance companies would have you believe that an incorrectly specified tyre will disintegrate the second it goes 1 mph or 1 KG over it's max rating, resulting in a disaster zone of 50 mile radius !

Abuse will shorten a tyres life and perhaps make it more susceptable to failure but the margin is wide.

Not condoning installing obviously incorrect tyres but common sense should prevail.

One thing I have noticed about my Xantia, it does not like the lower end of the budget tyre spectrum and wears the shoulders out prematurely if fitted with them. Although my driving could have soemthing to do with that :-**
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident :(
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP :(
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped :( )
& a couple of Peugeots !
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Post by handyman »

Hullo HDI, you have to get this arbitrary speed limit of 70mph out of your head when refering to speed ratings on tyres.

The speed rating for a tyre is a reference to the tyre's performance at given speeds relative to carcass distortion and tread stability, not what maximum speed the vehicle can achieve nor the driver's capabilty to handle a car at or above a given speed.

If you think a lower speed rated tyre fitted to a high performance car will perform in the same way as the correct fitment, you are under an illusion that the safety margins inherent in the tyre design will compensate for the incorrect fitment. It wont! :shock:

Safety margins are acceptable when the application is right. Lowering a performance factor also lowers the safety margin. Would you fit lower graded brake pads to your car on the premise that you only brake gently all the time? I do not think so.

Fit the right tyres with the right speed rating AND the correct load factors.

I rest my case. :roll:

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Post by HDI »

Just for the record, I'm under no illusion regarding tyre ratings, I was making a practical point.

My working knowledge of tyres is pretty reasonable as I'm involved in the high performance and motor-sport game. I've also had a fair bit of practical experience of doing things some would say you shouldn't with tyres :wink:
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident :(
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP :(
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped :( )
& a couple of Peugeots !
handyman
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Location: In the clouds in the Land of South Saxons
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x 2

Post by handyman »

[quote="HDI"]Modern tyres are engineered with such high safety margins that they will tolerate overload, overspeed and other abuse for a surprising amount of time.

Abuse will shorten a tyres life and perhaps make it more susceptable to failure but the margin is wide.

One thing I have noticed about my Xantia, it does not like the lower end of the budget tyre spectrum and wears the shoulders out prematurely if fitted with them. Although my driving could have soemthing to do with that :-**[/quote]

Modern tyres are designed to offer better handling and performance than the older higher mileage tyres ever used to. However, with the increasing use of lower and lower profiles to increase the cars responsiveness, the tyres sidewalls have become more stressed and more susceptable to ruptures, especially from adverse road conditions - potholes, etc.

Tyre treads are now much stickier, hence the high wear rate, but they are less prone to skidding or aquaplaning.

Talking to my local tyre stockist, he comments he is more likely to have to replace a tyre due to sidewall damage or deflation due to a puncture than was ever the case ten or twenty years ago.

No tyre will tolerate abuse, nor ever did.

Handyman
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Post by handyman »

HDI, like you I have a background in motor sport both on tarmac and off-road, but there is no way I would use that as a justification to be blaise about how the average motorist should conduct himself on the road or maintain his car. You may be aware of the consequences of your actions, others may not be so aware.

People are too easily lead by example, whether good or bad. And you can stick that on your record.

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Post by HDI »

Someone needs to chill out I think :D

I know what I know, you know what you know, end of.
Now using '00 Xantia LX HDI, pov spec :(
My past Citroens :-
'00 Xantia SX HDI, now dead due to accident :(
'99 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive, RIP :(
'97 Xantia TD SX
'96 Xantia TD LX
'96 ZX TD
'89 BX TD
'88 AX GT
'79 CX2400 Pallas (scrapped :( )
& a couple of Peugeots !
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Post by Citroenmad »

You can get winter tyres in your C5s 215.55.16, ive been looking into them. However it seems almost impossible to get W rated winter tyres. H or V would be fine but you would have to let your insurance know. After all some C5s do come with H and V tyres, but as yours is a C5II or facelift then they were only available with the larger 215.55.16W tyres.
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Post by picnmix »

Yes, I've seen the 215.55.16 H rated winter tyres too - That's what I was thinking of getting. It annoys me that I would have to pay an increased premium for insurance when fitting tyres that over winter will improve safety.

If I can get something in writing from Citroen that they are happy with H rated that will satisfy the insurers without an increased premium. I'll drop Citroen customer services an email and see what they say.
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Post by picnmix »

Contacted Citroen as to whether H speed rated (130 mph) tyres are authorised for winter tyres instead of the standard W rated summer tyres got this response:

"Thanks for your email about using winter tyres on your C5.

The parts manager at your local Citroën dealer is the best person to help you with this, so I'd recommend getting in touch with them. They'll be able to tell you which tyres are best to use and order them for you. Your nearest Citroen dealer is:"

Not the authoritative response I was hoping for. There must be an Citroen official position on this as in certain European countries winter tyres are mandatory. These drivers must be using alternative speed rated (and possibly size) tyres.

Citroen and the insurers really could be more helpful here.
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Post by frenchcarnut »

Could you not contact a Finnish, Swedish or Norwegian supplier and ask them? Many can write English and I'm sure, as part of a quote (to include postage to the UK) will be helpful enough to offer a rating for a C5.

We've had this conversation before and the lack of governance and advice on the matter is really irritating. Why Govt Transport ministers don't come down hard on the insurers who seem to profit from muddying the waters is beyond me.

EDIT: Alternatively, contact AndersDK on his site and ask him if he could go to a Scandinavian site (the language you see) and get some advice on this.

I'm sure a post on his Danish Forum will be responded to helpfully

http://www.citronik.dk/jforum/forums/show/12.page

Also, just gone to google.no (Norway) and used to Google Translate to get some info from this Norwegian Site.

Actually found a selection of winter tyres (see link below)

http://vianor.no/dekk_info?t=vinterdekk ... d=12661857

But the price for 4 on some Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7? GULP!!!!

215/55 R 16 97T XL £ 1796 £ 7183 Add to Cart

These are pimpled tyres!! The friction variety that we'd use (Nokian Hakkapeliitta R) are £8k for 4!!!!!!!!

215/55 R 17 98R XL £ 2008 £ 8031 Add to Cart
04 C5 2.0 Auto HDi VTR
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Post by frenchcarnut »

EDIT2 - Another alternative:

Go on ebay, get some good seconds at rating H and pay the extra premium if they demand it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-2155516-Micheli ... 835wt_1143

The irony being that insurers probably aren't going to ask you if your tyres are second hand and thus potentially unsound. What a bunch of hypocrites :lol:
04 C5 2.0 Auto HDi VTR
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