Anyone got any contact details for a supplier of the so called comfort spheres ?
Thanks
Mark_sp
comfort spheres
Moderator: RichardW
I'd suggest fixing whatever is wrong in your suspension before resorting to these things.
I've heard more bad reports than good ones mainly due to the strange handling characteristics that can occur after they've been fitted.
I recently had a case where I ended up with a "soft" suspension but fortunately I hadn't bought the spheres but was instead just trying them out to see what the effect would be; I soon found out.
May be worthy of a read & a bit more investigation before proceeding down this track as it's often found that these so called "comfort" sphere can tend to partially hide an existing problem that has to be corrected eventually anyway, after which the car feels like a cruise ship rockin' N rollin' along. [:D][:D][:p]
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... =canundrum
Alan S
I've heard more bad reports than good ones mainly due to the strange handling characteristics that can occur after they've been fitted.
I recently had a case where I ended up with a "soft" suspension but fortunately I hadn't bought the spheres but was instead just trying them out to see what the effect would be; I soon found out.
May be worthy of a read & a bit more investigation before proceeding down this track as it's often found that these so called "comfort" sphere can tend to partially hide an existing problem that has to be corrected eventually anyway, after which the car feels like a cruise ship rockin' N rollin' along. [:D][:D][:p]
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... =canundrum
Alan S
Thanks
Yes, I'm only investigating at the moment and really just want the technical spec to compare to standard. From previous posts you may be aware that I'm unhappy with the ride quality of my Xantia TD and unless I can resolve it I'll probably sell it at the end of the summer. I've owned 2 bx's both with excellent ride quality and a few years ago almost bought a 2L auto that had the best quality of ride I've ever experienced [with cars that is]. When I bought my car it needed spheres, however having replaced them with genuine Citroen units the ride was improved but very very firm, it put my Granada Scorpio to shame. I've since swapped the spheres for the non turbo ones and the ride has improved a little but it still bumps and jarrs along at slowish speeds, theres a little more roll but nothing like the bx. The Cit specialist I use says the ride is normal for my car [1998 60k]and that the suspension is in good order so maybe I'm after something that doesn't exist anymore. Had a ride in a colleagues peugeot yesterday, I think its a 306 [smallish hatch anyway] and the ride quality in that at lowish speeds was better.
what I could probably do with is a ride in another car where the owner thinks that the ride quality is excellent as a comparison.
Mark_sp
Yes, I'm only investigating at the moment and really just want the technical spec to compare to standard. From previous posts you may be aware that I'm unhappy with the ride quality of my Xantia TD and unless I can resolve it I'll probably sell it at the end of the summer. I've owned 2 bx's both with excellent ride quality and a few years ago almost bought a 2L auto that had the best quality of ride I've ever experienced [with cars that is]. When I bought my car it needed spheres, however having replaced them with genuine Citroen units the ride was improved but very very firm, it put my Granada Scorpio to shame. I've since swapped the spheres for the non turbo ones and the ride has improved a little but it still bumps and jarrs along at slowish speeds, theres a little more roll but nothing like the bx. The Cit specialist I use says the ride is normal for my car [1998 60k]and that the suspension is in good order so maybe I'm after something that doesn't exist anymore. Had a ride in a colleagues peugeot yesterday, I think its a 306 [smallish hatch anyway] and the ride quality in that at lowish speeds was better.
what I could probably do with is a ride in another car where the owner thinks that the ride quality is excellent as a comparison.
Mark_sp
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Dave Burns
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I had a 1.9D before the turbo and it was lovely, got the TD and was a bit dissapointed.
I stuck 1.9D spheres on an inlaws td and its much softer than mine, thats the way I'm going next time they need doing, wish I'd thought of doing it earlier when I did mine.
The 1.9D's are higher pressure at 70 Bar and so have a higher gas volume in them when on load, they also have a larger damper orrifice.
Dave
I stuck 1.9D spheres on an inlaws td and its much softer than mine, thats the way I'm going next time they need doing, wish I'd thought of doing it earlier when I did mine.
The 1.9D's are higher pressure at 70 Bar and so have a higher gas volume in them when on load, they also have a larger damper orrifice.
Dave
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ghostrider
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Could this be connected with tyres, ie how low a profile they are. My turbo Bx has some ZX alloys with 185/60s on and the ride at low speed is not as good as my ordinary estate on 165/65s, the other difference may be the anti roll bar, I suspect that the turbo Xantia has a stiffer one than the non turbo, certainly on CXs the GTI turbo had an anti roll bar that was much bigger than the rest of them which coupled with low profile tyres, gave a much poorer ride at low speed. I seem to remember that a partial solution rather than a bigger damper orifice which as Alan says can have some very nasty side effects was to change to the 500ml spheres rather than the 400mml ones but I'm not sure what size are fitted to the front of the Xantia
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MARIJUANA VAPORIZER
Last edited by ghostrider on 22 Feb 2011, 05:33, edited 1 time in total.
Mark,
Just out of curiosity, what kind of tyres do you have on that car?
My first Cit was an example of how tyres can upset the equilibrium of the suspension.
It was a CX, a car noted for its quality ride yet wasn't all that much better than the Mazda E2200 panel van I had. Not only that, the car was heavy to steer & aquaplaned like you wouldn't believe. I had the business in those days & didn't have the time to spare to do my own service & it seemed nobody could cure it. In the interests of matrimonial harmony, I eventually decided one weekend I'd get it properly sorted. First thing after checking the action of the spheres were the tyres; lo & behold if I didn't discover that the front were the type also suited for light commercials. (ie) hard walled.
Fitted new Michelins (made in France variety) & you wouldn't believe it was the same car.
Whilst I can't speak for your car, I do know that it was in the original specs for the BX that tyres were an integral part of the ride & that changing from the tyres as fitted new, could adversely affect the ride quality; the fact that you say another car rode better at low speed tells me that the tyres are a likely suspect as their influence would be felt more at slower speeds than when cruising.
Alan S
Just out of curiosity, what kind of tyres do you have on that car?
My first Cit was an example of how tyres can upset the equilibrium of the suspension.
It was a CX, a car noted for its quality ride yet wasn't all that much better than the Mazda E2200 panel van I had. Not only that, the car was heavy to steer & aquaplaned like you wouldn't believe. I had the business in those days & didn't have the time to spare to do my own service & it seemed nobody could cure it. In the interests of matrimonial harmony, I eventually decided one weekend I'd get it properly sorted. First thing after checking the action of the spheres were the tyres; lo & behold if I didn't discover that the front were the type also suited for light commercials. (ie) hard walled.
Fitted new Michelins (made in France variety) & you wouldn't believe it was the same car.
Whilst I can't speak for your car, I do know that it was in the original specs for the BX that tyres were an integral part of the ride & that changing from the tyres as fitted new, could adversely affect the ride quality; the fact that you say another car rode better at low speed tells me that the tyres are a likely suspect as their influence would be felt more at slower speeds than when cruising.
Alan S
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Dave Burns
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I don't think a/r bars would affect ride this much, the undulations in a road surface are usualy put there during its laying and they go all the way accross the lane, this means that both pairs of wheels encounter the bumps and hollows at the same time, thus the a/r bar is not delfected and so doesn't come into play.
The problem I think is purely down to the resistance of the strut to move upwards at high enough speed due to the restricted movement of oil, the only things you can do are make more room for it in the sphere by using higher initial pressures, so the gas pressure rises slower during suspension movement meaning more oil can be forced in easier, or use less restrictive damper sizes.
Though you can get the pressure altered you can't alter the damper.
Dave
The problem I think is purely down to the resistance of the strut to move upwards at high enough speed due to the restricted movement of oil, the only things you can do are make more room for it in the sphere by using higher initial pressures, so the gas pressure rises slower during suspension movement meaning more oil can be forced in easier, or use less restrictive damper sizes.
Though you can get the pressure altered you can't alter the damper.
Dave
A couple of silly thoughts
1. - is the ride height correct? If the car isn't attaining its correct height for some reason it will feel terrible as it nudges the bump stops.
2. Is the car consistently uncomfortable or is it better when wet? I've had many cars that were better in the wet - the fun bit is finding which bearing is seized!
Jeremy
1. - is the ride height correct? If the car isn't attaining its correct height for some reason it will feel terrible as it nudges the bump stops.
2. Is the car consistently uncomfortable or is it better when wet? I've had many cars that were better in the wet - the fun bit is finding which bearing is seized!
Jeremy
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blueboy2001
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I'd tend to agree with Jeremy, Xantia's do seem to ride a touch low as the height correctors age which will give a firmer ride due to reduced suspension travel. I'm sure mine rides a bit lower than it should do when compared with later models, albeit this is only by glance.
I've got D spec rear spheres on my TD - they do give much better low speed ride, at the expense of hitting the bump stops at higher speeds over bigger bumps. I have also noticed the back end drops more under hard acceleration. I can't see why its a bad idea really, I suppose the faster TD was equipped with spheres better suited to higher road speeds and less body movement under hard acceleration.
I've got D spec rear spheres on my TD - they do give much better low speed ride, at the expense of hitting the bump stops at higher speeds over bigger bumps. I have also noticed the back end drops more under hard acceleration. I can't see why its a bad idea really, I suppose the faster TD was equipped with spheres better suited to higher road speeds and less body movement under hard acceleration.
Thanks to All.
Tyres are the dreaded Tigar, new at all corners fitted by previous owner, and I'm experiencing wandering. Cant replace them yet I've run out of cash and explaining to the household accountant why I want to replace brand new tyres would be a hiding to nothing.
wheels are the standard alloys fitted to the desire variants, they look similsr to the ones I've seen fitted to early VSX cars. Not sure what the J size is but the tyres are 185/65 15 inch.
Ride height looks okay to me, I have not actually measured it yet but I don't think that its low.
I think that the problem is at the front end [if indeed there is a problem as I'm beginning to think that my expectation is too high] and my gut feeling is that its in the area of moving enough fluid quickly enough, as has been suggested. My old bx had 500cc spheres at the front with a 1.8mm centre bore [not sure about the damping]and it was excellent. The spheres that I originally fitted to the Xantia were supposedly original Citroen, they were 400cc at 55bar and thats all I know. They cured the car of bouncing off the road at the slightest undulation but they gave a sports car ride. I then fitted non turbo spheres and the rear end loosened up nicely, however at the front although the push test suggested much more travel possible, on the road there was only a slight improvement. [body roll under high pressure cornering increased, not to the level of the bx but anyway who cares as long as the grip is still there] One thing though the non turbo spheres were regassed units from AS and they were at 70 bar but still only 400cc and I'd expected 450cc ?
The car that had the ride quality I seek was a 1995 2L petrol. Unless I'm mistaken this car would have had the same spec spheres as I'm running now. So I can only conclude 2 things: maybe the strut design has changed between 1995 and 1998 or the car I road tested was not standard.
with regard to the question about the safety aspect, common sense must prevail and at the end of the day the car must be drivable. A softer ride will mean a less aggressive style needs to be adopted but if I wanted to drive aggressively I'd have bought an Activa. Also I'm only seeking a quality of ride for the car that was standard in 1995. Finally I'd return the car to standard before selling it on.
mark_sp
Tyres are the dreaded Tigar, new at all corners fitted by previous owner, and I'm experiencing wandering. Cant replace them yet I've run out of cash and explaining to the household accountant why I want to replace brand new tyres would be a hiding to nothing.
wheels are the standard alloys fitted to the desire variants, they look similsr to the ones I've seen fitted to early VSX cars. Not sure what the J size is but the tyres are 185/65 15 inch.
Ride height looks okay to me, I have not actually measured it yet but I don't think that its low.
I think that the problem is at the front end [if indeed there is a problem as I'm beginning to think that my expectation is too high] and my gut feeling is that its in the area of moving enough fluid quickly enough, as has been suggested. My old bx had 500cc spheres at the front with a 1.8mm centre bore [not sure about the damping]and it was excellent. The spheres that I originally fitted to the Xantia were supposedly original Citroen, they were 400cc at 55bar and thats all I know. They cured the car of bouncing off the road at the slightest undulation but they gave a sports car ride. I then fitted non turbo spheres and the rear end loosened up nicely, however at the front although the push test suggested much more travel possible, on the road there was only a slight improvement. [body roll under high pressure cornering increased, not to the level of the bx but anyway who cares as long as the grip is still there] One thing though the non turbo spheres were regassed units from AS and they were at 70 bar but still only 400cc and I'd expected 450cc ?
The car that had the ride quality I seek was a 1995 2L petrol. Unless I'm mistaken this car would have had the same spec spheres as I'm running now. So I can only conclude 2 things: maybe the strut design has changed between 1995 and 1998 or the car I road tested was not standard.
with regard to the question about the safety aspect, common sense must prevail and at the end of the day the car must be drivable. A softer ride will mean a less aggressive style needs to be adopted but if I wanted to drive aggressively I'd have bought an Activa. Also I'm only seeking a quality of ride for the car that was standard in 1995. Finally I'd return the car to standard before selling it on.
mark_sp
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Dave Burns
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There are no real safety issues as far as I can see so long as you use a sphere designed for similar models, that does not mean using hydractive or activa spheres on a standard setup or viceversa.
Both variants are very similar in weight, both are capable of being driven round most corners at very similar speed, the only meaningfull advantage of a TD over a D during normal motoring is going up hill.
On top of that the 1.9D, 1.6 and 1.8 petrols share the same sphere, and both those petrols will p**s all over the D for speed, so where's the problem.
Dave
Both variants are very similar in weight, both are capable of being driven round most corners at very similar speed, the only meaningfull advantage of a TD over a D during normal motoring is going up hill.
On top of that the 1.9D, 1.6 and 1.8 petrols share the same sphere, and both those petrols will p**s all over the D for speed, so where's the problem.
Dave
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Richard Gallagher
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As far as ride height is concerned, some of you may have noticed that from 1995, when Citroen started using 15" wheels on all TD and 2.0 litre cars, they raised height of the rear suspension by 23mm.
Having now made this 'alteration' to my 1994 VSX all I can say is that you would not believe the difference it makes in softening the ride. Whilst 23mm is a small amount to most people, it is a large amount of extra travel in suspension terms.
Also bear in mind that until that time, the VSX was fitted with 15" wheels but they had quite low profile 195/55/15 tyres which did little to absorb bumps. After that date they changed to 185/65/15 which does make a difference.
I have also fitted 'normal' TD spheres to both of my hydractive VSX Xantias.
Each of these small alterations do add up to make for much a softer ride, I know because I have done all of the above alterations in turn and noticed a difference at the time each one was done.
What caused me to do this was that having changed to normal spheres on my 1994 car to match my 1997 one, the 1994 just did not ride as smoothly until the last two alterations were done. Now there is no difference. I whole heartedly reccommend these changes, I would not change either car back to their original setup/settings.
Having now made this 'alteration' to my 1994 VSX all I can say is that you would not believe the difference it makes in softening the ride. Whilst 23mm is a small amount to most people, it is a large amount of extra travel in suspension terms.
Also bear in mind that until that time, the VSX was fitted with 15" wheels but they had quite low profile 195/55/15 tyres which did little to absorb bumps. After that date they changed to 185/65/15 which does make a difference.
I have also fitted 'normal' TD spheres to both of my hydractive VSX Xantias.
Each of these small alterations do add up to make for much a softer ride, I know because I have done all of the above alterations in turn and noticed a difference at the time each one was done.
What caused me to do this was that having changed to normal spheres on my 1994 car to match my 1997 one, the 1994 just did not ride as smoothly until the last two alterations were done. Now there is no difference. I whole heartedly reccommend these changes, I would not change either car back to their original setup/settings.
Anders,
I wonder if the symptoms & cure that Richard has spoken of is similar in nature to the business we both discussed a while back (I think on another forum) regarding the height adjustments & various ways of doing them on a BX?
When that BX I spoke of on that occasion had been adjusted by altering the manual selection rods (the ones going front to rear) instead of the sway bar adjustments, mainly because of a tightening of the height corrector linkages, it caused a very 'sold' style of ride which left immediately I got the H/C arms moving freely & the adjustment corrected.
I must check to see if I have pics of that procedure as I'm fairly sure I did take some. If I have, I will find somewhere to post them.
Alan S
I wonder if the symptoms & cure that Richard has spoken of is similar in nature to the business we both discussed a while back (I think on another forum) regarding the height adjustments & various ways of doing them on a BX?
When that BX I spoke of on that occasion had been adjusted by altering the manual selection rods (the ones going front to rear) instead of the sway bar adjustments, mainly because of a tightening of the height corrector linkages, it caused a very 'sold' style of ride which left immediately I got the H/C arms moving freely & the adjustment corrected.
I must check to see if I have pics of that procedure as I'm fairly sure I did take some. If I have, I will find somewhere to post them.
Alan S