Citroen Relay engine swap XUD advice

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 08 Dec 2010, 20:42

Hi,
I bought a Citroen Relay 1000D 1.9d with a faulty fuel pump. On closer inspection it looks a little more severe. The timing belt is intact, but roughly every 5th groove is missing and every groove is broken on the leading edge. I don’t hold out much hope but will be removing the head tomorrow for closer inspection.
I am already prepared for the worst and am on the lookout for a replacement engine. My question is this:
My understanding is that this is a XUD engine which came out in various forms on various vehicles. From what I can gather mine is the XUD9AU engine. I have seen another engine from a ZX 1.9 which is the XUD9A. Are these engines interchangeable? What are the differences? Any wiring issues?
From the photograph it looks to be identical to mine. Any help is most welcome.
Thanks,
Warren

Chlorate · Post by **Chlorate** » 08 Dec 2010, 21:01

Hiya there,

Ooh bad luck with the timing issues there

I'm having to repair my XUD9 after my water pump seized and snapped my timing belt.

You may not have to remove the cylinder head to find out whether it's ok under there or not.

A chap called Paul (citroenxm) mentioned in a thread I posted a while back that you can use a screwdriver under the cam to lever the tappets down, and if they move up and down freely the chances is that the valves are ok.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=33222
There's the thread in question.

From the sound of things, you were quite lucky. Valve strikes can be rather nasty as I found out

As for the engine: No idea what the U stands for, but the XUD9 in a ZX is your basic purely mechanical lump, the only electronics you'll find are for the fuel stop solenoid and glow plugs.

-Alex

spider · Post by **spider** » 08 Dec 2010, 21:33

Should be OK with any XUD I would guess, as along with the Boxer, the early ones did come with the 1.9XUD / XUDT (and if memory serves a 2.5D) , later ones got the HDi unit.

Should be good to fit if needed, as you have an XUD anyway. Just the pipework etc although the vans existing unit (if its really bad and not repairable) will have all this anyway.

As above, if you can get an earlier XUD lump (ideally pre 97) you can dispense with the electronics which will save you a LOT of headaches with matching keys / pumps / keypads and / or transponders.

Probably have to swap engine mountings / brackets (possibly) on the donor to the existing one, if that's the case for the OS one then the timing belt and tensions will have to come off as its part of it. I imagine you may need to swap the flywheel off the existing unit to the ZX one too, as the van gearbox might be different.

All in all, do-able, more a question of playing swap than difficult.

The XUD is fitted in other PSA cars too, do not discount a 1.9 306 / 405 etc too. Basically the blocks are the same (turbo and non turbo blocks are different!)

EDIT... Welcome.

EDIT (2) Try to avoid a donor engine that has a keypad immobiliser (typically 96 ish) , if in doubt look at fuel pump on donor. Stop solenoid should be exposed (if its covered with metal plating it has immobiliser of some kind)

Post by **CitroJim** » 08 Dec 2010, 21:37

Basically Warren, any XUD9 engine will fit. The letters after the number are not that significant unless it's a T which means it's the Turbo Diesel.

Problem is, the Normally Aspired XUD9 is quite rare in comparison with the TD version but that one you've found in a ZX will be fine.

Be careful you don't get offered a 1769cc XUD7 engine as was fitted to the 205D and so on. These are very common and externally look pretty much identical to the XUD9. However, the heads are identical so one of these can be a spares donor if needed.

Sounds like either yours suffered the same fate as Alex's and the waterpump seized or the fuel pump seized. If the fuel pump seized, and Lucas pumps do if run on Veg oil, normally a special "shear section" in the pump driveshaft lets go to protect the engine. The pump, if you plan to reuse it need to be checked before trying to use it again.

When you remove the cam cover, you'll most likely find the camshaft snapped in two or three pieces and this may well have broken one or more cam bearing caps. These caps are not interchangeable with any other head and are not available as spare parts as the cam bearings were line bored as a set at manufacture time. Sometimes you can be lucky and find another set that fits but it's a lottery.

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 08 Dec 2010, 22:32

Thanks everyone for your input.

Chlorate: I had the cam cover off today briefly and saw no damage to the cam shaft. I will have more time tomorrow to have an in depth look. I like the idea of checking the valves before removing the head. I am no engine guru, but I know once the head is off, I am looking at spening money already.

Spider: Thanks for all the information regarding the engine change. The engine I am looking at is from a K reg, 1995 I think, so hopefully it will be a good fit. Another thing is that I will be delving into the engine tomorrow with my screwdriver checking those valves. Top tip.

CitroJim: I have read many of your previous posts and taken a look at your website so appreciate your input.

I guess there is not a lot else to say until I get in there tomorrow.
I will update tomorrow night when I know a little more. Regardless of how it ends up, I will post my end result. It really annoys me when people post a problem, get advice and never post back to say how things worked out. Good or bad. People like myself with little knowledge rely on these forums for insight and pitfalls.
Once again, thanks for all the help.
Watch this space

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 08 Dec 2010, 22:36

Sorry, thought I would just add.
Perhaps wishfull thinking, but I am living in hope that when the piston struck the valves, the belt was so rotten that instead of bending the valves, the energy took the path of least resitance and just shredded the belt.
If the belt has no more grip, it would just slip on the teeth?
How big a straw is that to be clutching at?!?! Still, I live in hope.

Chlorate · Post by **Chlorate** » 08 Dec 2010, 22:43

If your camshaft is in tact; it's possible you're a jammy, jammy so-and-so and got away without there being any valve strikes.

Really wouldn't recommend taking the head off, I've done it before on my ZX and it's no easy job. Took two of us two days (rain stopped play the first day) and a lot of swearing to get the thing off, longer to get it back on again.

Head gaskets for these things are super expensive and you'll need to get it skimmed on top of that...

But if you would feel more confident taking the head off, don't let me stop you. Just I'm not going to with mine, and I know I had at least one valve strike (the third of a camshaft sitting in front of me will agree with that)

-Alex

spider · Post by **spider** » 09 Dec 2010, 11:08

CitroJim wrote:Basically Warren, any XUD9 engine will fit.

Jim said the same as me, but he managed to do it without waffling on which is something I am good at

CitroJim wrote:Be careful you don't get offered a 1769cc XUD7 engine as was fitted to the 205D and so on. These are very common and externally look pretty much identical to the XUD9. However, the heads are identical so one of these can be a spares donor if needed.

That's a good point. I'm trying to think of an 'easy' way to ID them without resorting to numbers. If its out of the donor and just on the floor (and assuming its not been fitted to anything else) the 'easy' way to tell is the NA 1.7 unit will not have a cooler fitted at the oil filter, and the inlet manifold is different, but this assumes its not been fitted to something else (as if it has then obviously the bits from the previous engine will have been fitted)

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 09 Dec 2010, 12:46

The engine BLOCKS in van or car as far as N/a engines go are identical, however, the Mount on the Cam belt end is unique to the Relay, however, this will swap accross onto another XUD lump...

ZX, BX, 306, 309, 405, 305, Rover 200 (Honda concerto shape) all use the XUD 1.9, FSO Caro (Find one first) too...

Ive been watching a 1.9 305 N/a engine on Ebay, featuring a N/a BOSCH pump, extreamilly rare, its on for the second time for 50 quid! Apparently a good engine, and I beleve mid 80's early XUD's are the toughest, and rarely blow the head gasket.... Having Bosch mechanical will enable BIO or Veggie FUEL!

I was going to get the engine myself, but funds are quite tight atthe moment.

305 1.9d N/a BOSCH

Dont be frightend by the fact its been stood, theres no reason for it to run!

Paul

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 09 Dec 2010, 14:06

Right. I have had the cam cover off and below are some photographs of what I found.
Alex, it looks like I might just have been a little jammy.
The camshaft appears to be in one piece. I tried the screwdriver trick but am not sure how hight the valves are meant to lift so did not force them. I did find that all the valves are able to turn by finger i.e. rotate on the top of their seats. Would they do this if the stems were bent?

Does this mean anything or nothing? Not sure if I am meant to do this but figured that any damage has been done so.....I rotated the camshaft by the pulley and it turned okay without any noises. There was some resitance which I assume was the valve springs, but they were at uniform timings so seemed okay.
What I am thinking is this. If I buy another engine, I will be changing the timing belt and tensioners. Would it be feasible to buy the timing kit now and install it on this engine, line everything up and give it a go? If it does not seem healthy, can I then buy the new engine and use the kit I bought for my existing engine. Assuming the belt was not damaged in any way.
For you amusement I have tried to include a link to a photo album with pictures of the timing belt.

Another thought, should the camshaft be turning like that? i.e. should it not be encountering resistance against the piston/s (no belt operating the pistons)?
Or perhaps all the conrods have sheared and all four pistons are lying in the grave which is my engine block!

http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu31 ... n%20Relay/

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 09 Dec 2010, 15:09

Turning of the tops means nothing, they are not the valve tops but the Shim Buckets that set the valve clearences...

The valves should push down easyilly.. even just pushing a flat screw driver head between the "Lobe" and valve top with the Lobe is facing upwards should push the valve down...

I wouldn't bother with a Full kit, these XUD engines have Metal Pullys and tensioners which RARELY fail at all!!

Get a belt for the sake of 12 quid, it sounds like its worth timing the engine up - Very easy to do, and fitting a new belt alone for now..

However, its worth a Water pump too, but you would have to take the belt off again to fit one once you find the engine to be a good un...

Because theres teeth missing from the belt, does NOT necessarly mean its slipped and done any damage, however, the XUD will survive a "One Tooth out" slippage.. but that is all..

Cam shafts do break extreamilly easilly when a piston hits a valve. IF your cam is in one piece, Id say you have a 98% chance that she is still good, and I WOULD fit a new belt to try. You have nothing to loose.

Paul

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 09 Dec 2010, 15:11

OK so a few more teeth then I thought are missing...

Did the WHOLE of the cam shaft move when you turned it??

What you WILL NOT get is a Bent vlave and NO Broken Cam... its impossible on these engines due to design..

So if your cam is complete your valves are fine!

Paul

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 09 Dec 2010, 17:57

Hi Paul,
Yes the whole of the shaft moved. It sort of moven in stages, so I did a full revolution and left it at that.

I am glad you agree with me on the belt. I would rather spend the £12 on a belt to find out the engine is dead rather than take it to a garage where the rates are more than I can afford, only for them to tell me the same thing.

Now that I have the hand of the online photos, there is another thing I need to check. When I removed the timing belt cover, something fell off. I have taken a photograph of the "thing", so if someone could identify it for me I would appreciate it. Please don't tell me it's a giants thimble because I am likely to believe you.

http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu31 ... ell%20out/

I now live in hope that this thread is turning from an engine swap advice thread to a happy ending all is well thread.

Cheers everyone.

Chlorate · Post by **Chlorate** » 09 Dec 2010, 18:23

That little number is the b*****d auto-tensioner spring. If you look where the tensioner arm is mounted to the block, you'll see a little bit on the engine mount casting where it sits. Tis a rather fiddly thing to put back.

Picture on jgra1's Xantia blog

Second pair of hands well recommended!

Edit: Also that's extremely good news about the cam!

-Alex

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 09 Dec 2010, 19:38

Hi Alex

Thanks for the information and the photograph which is a great help.
I will give it all a go and post my results back.

Fingers crossed that all goes well.

Warren