Info on early Hdi engines

[Peter.N.]

Hi folks

I have temperoraly migrated from the Citroen forum in the hope that you knowledgable people can convince me that Hdi engines are not all evil. I am considering a 406 estate as a second car and am wondering about the servicability of an Hdi.

Firstly do they have a DMF? Secondly do the injectors have to be programmed or can they just be fitted and drive? Any other info as to there foibles and reliability would be appreciated.

I have so far judiciously avoided Hdi engines largely because of some of the horror stories I have heard about them, but as XMs are getting very thin on the ground now, can someone reassure me.

Peter

[Toby_HDi]

Peter, I'll answer with as much as I know. There are others who are more familiar with the HDi than me and may correct me on some points.

The early 2.0 8v engines (as fitted to the Xantia) do not have a DMF. They do have the dual mass crank pulley though. The later 16v units do. I know the 2.2HDi has a FAP but not certain if the 2.0 16v HDi does, I think not.

I always thought injectors on all HDi had to be programmed, but I've heard rumours that they can just be fitted and they will be fine. The only issue with injectors I've heard about is with the 2.2.

As you realise, they are more complex than an XUD but I believe they can be just as reliable, they just have to be looked after. My Xantia HDi never caused me any issues whatsoever (apart from ones I created myself ).

The 2.0 8v units are the one to have if you ask me. Like the Xantia, the 406 was available with the 90 and the 110. Get the 110, 90 is not enough for the 406, I'm convinced they are heavier than a Xantia. I've no experience with the 2.0 16v but the 2.2 seems to be a mixed bag. Some have no problems, some have many - of which the FAP is the main one, some of the Coupe owners with the 2.2 HDi have mapped out the FAP.

The other known foible to be aware of is the lift pump in the tank. Take it out and check its filter for metal particles, they have been known to go and take the injection pump with them. Some seem to think this is due to them over heating if run low on fuel. Veg will cause it too, under no cicumstances run them on any kind of veg, good diesel only.

Electrical issues can be an annoyance, especially on cars from 2001 onwards, these are full multiplex. Again, some have no issues at all, others many. No more so than a Xantia though.

Other than that all I'll say is don't be worried about the HDi, I doubt highly you'd neglect servicing them so get a good one and you should be fine. They are based on the XUD so they won't be completely foreign to you. Most faults are easily fixable and they are stronger than some make out, especially the 8v units.

[DickieG]

I agree with Toby, my HDi served me well for the 31k miles I drove it for and up to 149k miles, much more refined and economical than an XUD and no turbo lag with a 110, fuel consumption always seemed to be 50 mpg no matter where I drove at any speed. The only issue I had was with the lift pump, when it went it made a load noise so I turned off the ignition then went to restart and it wouldn't until I thumped the bottom of the tank which allowed me to drive it home and fit a spare pump, job done. Getting back into my VSX yesterday reminded me of how much of a leap forward the HDi was over the XUD, all that faffing around waiting for the glowplug light to go out before it'll start, what's that all about? Go for a 2.0 8v 110 bhp and you won't be disappointed.

[Peter.N.]

Hi Toby and Dickie

Thanks for that, it certainly reinforces what I have heard. The 2.1 XUD has a dual mass crankshaft pully so I am fimiliar with those, I have only ever had one fail and that was at about 250,000 miles.

I am used to the 2.1 engine covering nearly 300k with nothing needing replacement other than the usual head gasket at about 150k but until recently had not seen many Hdi's with that sort of mileage but a few are coming up now.

A friend of mine has just bought a 406 Hdi estate and is made up with it, I shall ask him for a drive, he says very much as you about the driveability of it.

I quite like the 406 and was going to look for a 2.1 which are also very good on fuel but there seem to be a lot more Hdi's about now. I really prefer the 405, although they are getting a bit old now there are still lots about down here in excellent condition, I think they were a brilliant car except that the seats are to short for me but the 406's seem about the same.

Thanks again for the info, if anyone can tell me when the transition to DMF was made I would be obliged.

Peter

[Citroenmad]

To my knowledge, no Xantia hDIs ever had a DMF, however, every 2.0HDi C5 does have a DMF. I dont know much about the 406, so i can not comment on when or if they they got the DMF. DMFs are an odd thing, some people report them going at around 60-70K miles, despite the clutch plate having little wear, others say they go on and on. Im yet to have a problem with one, though one of our C5s have a solid flywheel after the DMF went quite early on in its life, its now done more miles with the solid than it managed with its DMF.

If the DMF fails its not a hugely costly thing to have replaced and with the option of fitting a solid flywheel its not a bad thing. Im of the thinking that if the clutch is looked after and not abused by holding the car on it at junctions etc then it will last.

The 2.0HDi 8v is the ONE to go for, its the most hardy and is now very well proven to be a very reliable and strong unit. Yes Injectors can be a problem, but i wouldn't let that put you off. There is a lot of reports that the injectors are effected by fuel used, now i dont buy into the fact that fuel is fuel and its all the same, its NOT. Top brand fuels generally contain more lubricating factors and this helps injectors to last longer. I only ever use Shell or BP and have not had any problems with injectors. Our highest mileage C5, the SX, is on 126K and has not had one problem with injectors throughout its life.

The 406 is a very nice car, very spacious and its great value for money. I did look at getting one and went to see a few, but i didnt want an estate and found the saloon not to my needs. Though they did drive nicely and are very comfortable.

With the huge choice of 406s available it will pay to be picky, some of the ones i looked at had obviously seen a very hard life. Lowest mileage and best history is key.

Remember cambelts are every 100K on the HDis, so if ones you are looking at are around that mileage check that it has been done.

The 406 was never available with the 2.0 16V HDi, so you dont have to worry about that. But i would not recommend the 2.2 136 as its more problematic and with the 2.0 being so good you wont need it.

I find my C5 2.0 offers exactly the same performance as our Xm 2.1TD, so pace will be just as good in a 406. As Toby said, id avoid the 90bhp if you can, as that will be a slug and heavier on fuel.

The HDi 8v is without doubt one of the best more modern diesels around, you only have to look at reviews and forums to find out how many poor engines are out there.

You do see plenty of 2.0HDi 8vs with high miles, some towards the 300 mark and beyond. As i said ages ago i was talking to a Taxi driver who runs a fleet of C5s, he replaces them at around 300-400K miles due to condition, but not because they have problems.

I hope you have a look at a HDi powered car, they are very good engines. They are more refined than the 2.1 and better on fuel too. Try and go for a 2001 onwards car, which will be in the cheaper car tax bracket of £125.

[Citroenmad]

This thread would suggest the 406 was fitted with a DMF, though im not sure from when:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... highlight=

[Peter.N.]

Thanks Chris for your added information, I am not heavy on clutches, in fact I don't think I have ever worn one out, you don't need to slip them on a diesel unless you drive like a lunatic, I sold an XM a few years ago with 292k on it still with the original clutch, it did slip if you pushed it hard but I didn't and got at least another 10k out of it before I sold it.

I would like to avoid multiplex wiring if I can, anyone know when it was introduced?

Peter

[Citroenmad]

I think multiplexing was introduced around 2001-ish, it is obvious if the car as it. The indicator stalks will look very rounded, same as the C5s and not like the Xantia stalks.

Having a look around on autotrader would suggest plexing came in at some point in 2001.

[Toby_HDi]

Full CANbus multiplexing was introduced in 2001, around the time in September when they were being registered as '51' rather than 'Y'. However, D9s had a partial system before this, though this rarely gives the problems of the later full system. Saying that, the full system can be fairly reliable too.

My Coupe was built February 2001, registered June 2001 and doesn't have full multiplex.

As Chris has said the stalks look different which is the easiest way to tell.

As for the DMF, Chris could well be right. Looking on servicebox suggests all D9 HDi 110 had one.

[dieselnutjob]

Firstly do they have a DMF?

I think that the 110bhp does and the 90bhp doesn't. I'm not 100% sure though

Secondly do the injectors have to be programmed or can they just be fitted and drive?

No they are not programmed.

[Peter.N.]

Thanks for all the info so far folks, but just one more thing (columbo) are they prone to head gasket failure at around 150k like the 2.1 IDI, if not what is the life expectancy?

Peter

[citroenxm]

As far as Xantias go, HDi 110bhps DO NOT have DMF's!! YAY!!

Peter, the only things that fail OR CAN fail: The Pressure pump in the engine (In place of the Roatry Pump on XUD) and the high pressure lift pump in the tank...

Injectors seem long lasting, having rare failiures!! My Taxi man has done 205k on his set now in a Xantia 110bhp, only needing a High Pressure Pump on the engine so far!!

I dont think they are any more Complicated at all!! Think of a Petrol Injection car - but fuel'd by Diesel instead, thats all they are.. except they run at much higher pressures.. Theres pleanty of parts now on ebay at good prices, but you really do need a "Friend" with a Lexia. Then theres NOTHING to be frightened of at all!

As you know Peter Im a BIG fan of them!! Get a 110bhp! They ARE superior, go better and ARE better on fuel then 90bhp..

Funny, reading this thread, that ALL Citroen contributers replied, and only one Peugeot replyer...

Rgds
Paul

[Peter.N.]

Hi Paul

You have mentioned Hdi's in the past so I thought you must have had something to do with them. I am warming to the early ones as they don't seem to be as troublesome as some of the later ones.

The extra economy appeals to me a lot if its not at the expense reliability and from what you and others have said that does seem to be the case. What are the late Xantias like for reliability, and how about head gaskets?

Peter

[citroenxm]

Head gaskets!???

NO PROBLEM!! They are fitted with the Laminated Type from factory, so unless you REALLY and I mean REALLY abuse them and use no anti freeze then theres a history of NO PROBLEMS!

If a belt breaks its the same design as the 2.1, the Rocker fingers break instead of anything else, so theres no real need to ever need to remove a head!

I have, though, removed heads before now.

The extra MPG, this apeals to me, also the Superb ingear shove in the back you get..... then fit a tuning box and you really CAN and DO smile!

So.. weres this XM HDi project I was talking about, well, still on my cards one day

Paul

[citroenxm]

Peter,

the early 8v lumps in 406's and Xantias and early C5's ARE the best of them, and seem to give the Least bother... Im certain you WILL like them!

Paul